blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

shooting the triumph today for the second time with my burris signature 3-9x40 electro dot. i have maybe a total of 25 shots through the combo. well today after maybe 6 shots i noticed that my crosshairs were moving. this could explain why i wasn't getting any groups. i tapped the rearend of the scope and watched my crosshairs move, they ended up looking like and X instead of +. not happy at all.
i wonder if my lead sled is to blame. it was questioned awhile back that the sleds were hard on scopes. of course the lead sled people say that there is no way that is possible.
all i know is i just wasted alot of time, gas, blackhorn and barnes bullets for nothing.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

outdoorsmen

There are a lot ofolks out there that have had simular problems with the lead sled. I do not own one nor have i shot off of one but if you load the sled up enough to stop recoil it will cause a problem eventually....

Might ask Burris and see what they say...

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

There are a lot of folks out there that have similar problems without using the lead sled. There are many people that use the lead sled without any problems. For the lead sled to cause a problem, it has to be exerting some kind of extraordinary force on the scope. I don't see it happening. Someone needs to explain where this mysterious force comes from.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Where it comes from is the charge. Its simple physics. Remember the law of physics that any action results in an equal and opposite reaction? You load a lead sled up with weight and set off a stiff charge - something has to give. In this case it was the scope. I've also seen in one of the other forums where a guy was shooting his 416 with 100 lb of weight (like on the TV ads) and cracked his stock.
When shooting off your shoulder, your body acts somewhat like a shock absorber - restricting and cushioning, but allowing movement.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

recoil - that energy has to go somewhere. Your shoulder is a nice, pliant cushion that will absorb the energy, a brick wall is not so accommodating.Just run a simple vector analysis of the distribution of force. :D ;)

But I always wonder (when reading of this type event)what kind of rings/mounts were involved and if they were secure.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

UC - I would have to say that his mounts were secure. Apparently the held in place well enough to wreck his scope. The Burris Signature scope isn't a piece of crap scope.
Your question makes me laugh though. Years ago Bushnell came out with a handgun scope with what they called 'post mounts'. If you don't recall these, they were simplytapered studsthat were screwed into the mounting holes on the revolver and the scope had matching holes with a locking screw. I installed this set up on my S&W 29 (.44 mag). It didn't even last one cylinder full. about the 4th or 5th shot, the scope went sailing over my head landing about 5 feet behind me. Peeved me off at the time - but funny now.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Come on guys. The only thing that is going to take a beating when a rifle is fixed in an imobile device (like a grossly over weight lead sled) is the rear stock and maybe the action.

Think of it this way. Is the same scope & rings setup going to get more punishment being attached to a 15 inch encore pistol or a 12 pound target rifle?

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Yes, the force goes into the slight movement of the rifle/sled/SCOPE combo. The scope moves much faster and farther if it pushing some wimpy shoulder back.

Think about the most extreme situation. The gun is put up against a solid brick wall. The stock is strong enough not to give under the extreme recoil. The scope sits perfectly still on top of the rifle. NO recoil at all is felt by the scope.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

jascoesens

We were typing at the same time!

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

ok, then you sit on top that receiver and tell me what you feel. :D

"Think about the most extreme situation. The gun is put up against a solid brick wall. The stock is strong enough not to give under the extreme recoil. The scope sits perfectly still on top of the rifle. NO recoil at all is felt by the scope." Scenario is impossible. Where does the recoil go then? Compression of the stock? If the stock comresses, the scope moves.

I think your scenario and the one above are erroneous over simplifications of a complex situation so far as energy distribution during recoil but do not claim to be able to offer definitive proofto the contrary. It isn't how far you fall, it's how fast you stop.:D

And further, let's pose this question to Twanger on HA - he ISa physicist.

WHUT?

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Well I never used a lead sled.

I have some problems with Burris products. I do not mean to anger anyone, and my experience with Burris is limited, butyears ago, my friends on their centerfires went with Burris scopes. I went with a Tasco World Class. We all shot 7mm mags and both their scopes went bad after a year or two. Now granted we shot a lot back in those days, and some were hot loads. My friends both went to Leupold after that. My 7mm mag STILL has that same Tasco on it, and it still shoots great.

Lets hope that Burris has a great customer service...

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

burris signature zee rings on a warne steel base.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

i've contacted my sales rep for burris and i'll be sending it back. they have a forever warrenty and have sent a few of my other scopes to them before for minor things. they will take care of it and do so without charge. i haven't run into any problems with there service before.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

I just bought a lead sled but havent used it yet
Maybe I just wont put any weight on it,It seems like a nice rest just the way it is

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Jascoesens - look at it this way. Lets say you took your scope and layed it in your open hand. Then you smacked it with a rubber mallet. It would fly off your hand and onto the ground - and probably not get damaged. Now set it on a concrete floor and give it a whack with the mallet. You are definately going to jar the internals. Maybe enough to cause damage. Think about recoil as the invisible mallet.
The lead sled is a good idea and I wish I thought of it while pattering my 3 1/2" turkey gun or sighting in a 460 Weatherby for a guy.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

I have shot about 200 Barnes 300g Origonal thru a Savage with a Lead Sled and about 20 lbs of sand. I have a Bushnell 3200 scope with Warne QD rings and Weaver GrandSlam mounts. I have not had a problem. To me the recoil is going into the sled, not the scope, the scope is mounted on the rifle and of course is in motion like the rifle itself. A lotta guys shoot them without issues, so there must be something good to them or they would not sell. Chap

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

You are exactly right Chap. And I see no problem with using the lead sled. But using it properly - like you are, with only about 20 lb of weight.
That TV commercial is misleading using 100 lb of weight and shooting a 416 RM.
Using too much weight and using a firearm with some 'kick' is going to result in equipment failure sooner or later.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

The recoil goes to the earth.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

There you go - but in the form of various gun/scope parts. lol

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

I did not like the "Sled" the first time I saw one. I do not doubt the fact that the "Sled" is harder on your equipment. But I did not like it for a more basic reason. There is no doubt in my mind that if you impede the natural recoil of the rifle then you would no doubt impact the POI. This impact of POI would be unacceptable to me. Tom.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

:D:D:D

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Sorry, I know that sound simplistic but sometimes that's the easiest way to describe something.
All I am trying to say is that too much resistance is not good for equipment.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Thanks guys! You are passionette about our sport and I like that. However I think it is time for me to respectfully agree to disagree. I would suspect that the scope was going to fail regardless. It has happened at least once before.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Few arewilling to loadtheir top of the line muzzleloader that has an expensive scope with 150 grains of Pyrodex and a 300 grain XTP and then fire the gun with the butt against a tree. This is what you are doing with a lead sled with 50-75 pounds of shot on it.

Oftenshoot on alocal range. Watched several guys crack gun stocks,trash their scopes, and break theirscope mounts usinglead sleds. One guy was surprised that the stock on his beautiful pre-64 Winchester .375H&H cracked with 100 pounds of lead on the sled. Folks, there are no lead sleds in the woods. Get a good recoil pad and/or a padded garment: If that does not do it for you reduce your loads.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Last week I shot a bunch of loads off in just a t-shirt.(pants too for all you wise guys...lol)My shoulder is not quite as unsore today. I usually have a pair of neoprene gloves in my box that i use as a pad under my shirt to my Hawkens. For my flat butt stocked rifles like the Renegade, I got me a slip on recoil pad at Wally World that I put on to test groups. When done, I just slip it back off. And its a heck of a lot cheaper than a lead sled.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Now I'm scared to use mine.
My shooting bench has a front attatchment for holding the front,I'll just use that for now

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

saxman - there is no reason to be afraid to use your lead sled. Just don't pile it up with shot. YOu need some give. Heck, you may not even need any weight on it for your ML. But I don't think I would put more than 25 lb on it.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Just curious...

What do you guys do when hunting with these big shoulder thumpers....carry your lead sled with you?

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Mr. Loony - So are you trying to stir up trouble here too like you didon the other forum?
These guys are all great guys - we do not need your sarcastic, abusive comments in here.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

No sir
I am just trying to sight in my rifle as accurately as possible and to se which bullett and load preforms the best while taking my human element out of the picture.
I have a flinching problem and am hoping that the lead slead will help me eliminate this problem through proper pratice.
I have every intention of shooting my gun in real life situations after a proper sight in.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

saxman1

The lead sled is a good product - just do not have it overloaded - the gun needs to have some ability to recoil - so as Bronco suggests "just do not overload it..."

I do not use a sled at all so I really can not be a good judge of what weight might be best... When I shoot off the bench, i guess i shoot the old fashioned way - I use bags front and rear, actully I use a Caldwell "Rock" on the front. My bench has one of those front rest also but I do prefer "the rock"

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Nope, just never found a need forthat lead sled thing, nor a whole lot of use for a bench either, for that matter. Shootin' off a bench gives you a different POI than you get with field positions, and it would seem to me if you need a heavy sled thing to "sight in" for hunting then you should be concentrating on your shooting form WITHOUT the heavy sled first.

Flinch isn't a function of what rest you are using either....

Just wonderin' what makes some of you guys tick, that's all.................

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Saxman....proper practice without the Lead Sled will cure your flinch. I patterened 3 Turkey guns this Spring using 3.5" #6s (12ga) tungsten pellets with 2.25 oz.loads. If that don't give ya a flinch,,,you're a better man than me.;)

I've read numerous reports about the LS busting scopes. I tend to believe them,,although I don't own one,,and won't.

For the "non-believers"....I'll ask this.....

Why do air guns trash scopes so easily with the "reverse recoil"??

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Saxman never said anything about having a flinch and I don't recall anyone else saying that either. But for load testing for accuracy it may be a good tool for that.The same goes for a bench.
I can honestly say that the statement that shooting off the bench gives you a different POI than field positions. But the bench serves the purposefor load development, getting the 'feel' of your equipment, and significantly reducing the human factor. But once you load is established, field position shooting practice is great and beneficial.
I've never had the need for a lead sled either but getting one does not make it wrong.
If I was incorrect in my previous statement, I apologize. Its just I can't abide people putting other people down for any reason. It usually just hides their own insecurity.

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

I am sorry you have concern about the way I have chosen to try and learn to shoot better
I will learn to crawl before I walk and walk before I run.

Whatever way you choose to shoot sir is entirely your business and I'm sure I can learn something from it.
I have decided on a different approach and will not apoligize for it or defend it any further.
I wont waste another minuet of my time wonderin what makes you tick. GOOD DAY SIR.
VIVA LE DIFFERANCE

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Touche - saxman

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Right there is black and white dude........


Not much on lame holier than though 'net jockys either. When confronted with a good argument against what they are saying they tend to type stuff just like that.

All I'm saying is, and this IS the point you are missing by at least 22000 feet, is that too many "shooters" sit on a bench all day long and then wonder why, when taking a poke at a critter,something kicks their shoulder off, or their shot misses, or they make a bad hit.

Bench time with a lead sled DOESNOTHING for you if you cannot handle the recoil of a particular rifle chambering. Why bother with it in the first place if you can't simply practice with it sans a recoil reducing rifle rest? A smaller chambering would be my reccomendation, plain and simple.

The other aspect you mention,of load R&D, is thatIF you need something to aid you inresting the rifle STEADIER than plain old fashioned sand bags and/or a set of bipods, then you SERIOUSLY need to address your riflemanship practices, ie: breathing, trigger pull, ect.......

OldSchool mostly never don't work and I can only wonder what happened to Riflemen practicing Marksmanship..............................

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Broncowhatever.................Well,,,,yeah he did.

Go back a few posts.

I was just replying to a question Saxman had, that I thought I could assist with. I'll go thru you next time since you're the genius here.[8D]

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

Didn't mean to hijack your thread outdoorsman
Sorry you had a problem and am glad you are detting it resolved

RE: blown scope, lead sled to blame?
 

missed that - my bad.