working up a load?
 

need some help here guys....i got my 370 grain maxi balls going. started at 70 grains at 50 yards and was shooting good enough to get my sights on...but 3" inch groups are not cutting it using a bench rest....i finished off with 3 rounds off hand and was still in the black, but evenly spaced around the edges at 8 - 12 - and 4 oclock...i'm comfortable my sights are are on....But....now what do i do? raise the powder amount 10 grains and see what happens? is there a procedure for "Working up a load"? does too much powder, or not enough show any tell - tale signs?

RE: working up a load?
 

Yes, Adjust powder until your groups start to open.

Once you find the powder charge that shoots best, add a felt wad. I used ox yoke felt wads and they helped big time.

RE: working up a load?
 

As stated, if you are not already, I would try some felt wads undneath the maxiballs.

I would also shoot some groups at 75 gr, 80, 85, and 90gr at 25 yards and see if any of those seem to be doing better than 70 gr. If so, then move back to 50 and beyond and see how they do.

What are you planning to hunt with this load?

RE: working up a load?
 

I agree with both previous post. And add one more thing - until you've found your rifle's pet load, stay shooting off the bench. There is just too much error shooting offhand.
Once that load is found, then by all means, practice shooting offhand to get the feel of your rifle. And remember, a rest of any sort is better than offhand.

RE: working up a load?
 

We have different methods, but the basics are start at the bottom of the load range and go up 10 gr at a time when you find the load that shoots the best try 5 gr either side of it.
After you have the best load try a single fiber wad, then a wad with a greased wad on top of it, then a wad with 20 gr by vol of corn meal on top and a greased wad on top that. The gun will usually have a preference. Lee

RE: working up a load?
 

When your load is accurate stop.Several years ago I wanted to use the Staghornwith the 370 grain Maxi Ball. Started with 70 grains of PyrodexRS. That load made1.25 and smallergroups at 75 yards.Any more powder and the groups fell apart. Dismissed the 70 grain load as not powerful enough and went back to sabots.Have been told I'm an idiot for doing that.

RE: working up a load?
 

you guys are great! i had a friend of mine suggest i take the gun in and have the barrel checked before i go any further, so i did..... i didn't own a bore light before, but i got one now...this shop i went to boasted god knows how many years experience with black powder guns and pulled out the stops running me through the basics.....

the barrel checked out ok, and they had the rear peep sight i been looking at in stock too! i was jazzed. these old timers recomended i should try the Hornady Great Plains bullets in 410 grains. they weren't really bad mouthing the TC Maxi Balls, but showed me why the preferred the Hornady. theyopened up a couple boxes of slugs and showed me the difference in the two. i liked the looks of the concave base of those bullets better than the flat bottom of the maxi ball. the great plains sluges had tighter lube grooves too...i had a lot of trouble with the pre lubed maxi balls and the lube coming off leaving uneven globs on the bullet...i was wiping them off and putting fresh lube on them as i shot....What a pain in the arse! Sooooooo....now that i know how to "Work up a load"...i'm going to give these Hornady slugs a try....

Hey Lee.....What's with the corn meal thing? i'm thinking that sounds kinda strange to me.....with these hornadt bullets i can despence with the extra wad according to these guys at the shop...they say the base of these bulles expand upon ignition with the concave shape doing a self sealing thing....
any comments on this opinion guys? i know one thing...the pre lubed Hornady bullets are going to be a lot easier to have uniform lube than the maxi ball......

RE: working up a load?
 

These guys i just had check my rifle barrel out recommended i start at 50 grains....and work my way up from there????....i could see it if i was using round ball at 175 grains.... but is 50 grains of powder going to be hot enough to push 410 grains of lead? seems a bit light to me....

I'm hunting Roosevelt Elk, hunting cowsin the 700-900 pound range....if you think i'm exagerating on the size of these Elk, i'm not....we hung a 950 pound cow on our meat pole a few years back, and i've seen bulls down there hit 1400 pounds, i kid you not....Some of these dad burn things are as big as work horses!!!!

hence forth, and to wit.....i want the largest chunk of lead i can shoot accurately at about a 100 yards.....i believe i'll most likely never exceed 60 to 80 yards...but there are times a longer shot doespresent itself.....

RE: working up a load?
 

one more question here guys....what exactly IS the purpose of the wad benieth the bullet? and whats up with the corn meal wad sandwitch Lee?

RE: working up a load?
 

I would think that 70-75 grains of powder would be my very lowest amount for shooting bigs hunks of lead at elk. And I really prefer in the 90 grain area if I can find an accurate load.

I have heard different ideas about what the wad does, but basically I think it protects the bullet from the explosion and helps keep gas from leaking by the bullet before it exits. Seems to tighten groups up in most cases.

If I were in your situation with big elk and less than 100 yards, I would start at 400 grains and go up from there. The 460 grain no excuse bullet can't be beat as far as effective elk medicine. The 410 (not the 385) hornady would also be a good choice if they are accurate.

RE: working up a load?
 

Discontinued by Hornady. [:@] If you find some, buy all they have.

RE: working up a load?
 

A few more words:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/working_up_a_load.htm

and toward sabots. Read your owners manual for the desired load and start there or near there, since they tend to shoot pretty good at the manufacturer's recommended load.
Best Wishes,
Chap Gleason

RE: working up a load?
 

that figures....i just bought 4 boxes and have burned up one and part of the other trying to get a decent load grouping for me...i thought i was doing good till i moved back to 50 yards....now i'm second guessing my load again.... this sucks!

RE: working up a load?
 

ok Tx....i'm trying to get these things to fly accurately and followed all the recomendations for "Working up a load" the i get back to 50 yards and the damn groups aren't even groups at all....this is not the shooter here....i'm benched, and i can dhoot well....i stopped at 90 grains and came back to about 75-80 grains and got my best groups at 25 yards.... you think i should try 95 - 100 before changing bullets or powder....i'm using pyrodex RS here....hell, i'm getting frustrated here....

RE: working up a load?
 

what rifle are you shooting?

What kind of "groups" are you getting with your current load?

RE: working up a load?
 

I would also like to know what rifle you are shooting. Hopefully not an Omega, which won't reliably shoot conicals. If not, then you may just have to monkey with other bullets and other powders and see what your gun likes. It can be a somewhat long process. Pyrodex is usually an accurate powder, so I would not change that first. Changing the bullet and possibly to another primer might make a difference. If it is an Omega (or any other Thompson center gun with a QLA), then you are probably locked in to trying powerbelts.

RE: working up a load?
 

A word of advice from someone who has shot an elk. Go big, lol.

I shot one 450-475 lb cow here in NV in 2005. I hit high and actually broke her back. I expected the bullet should have exited, but it didn't. The range was 75 yards.

The Gun? CVA Bobcat 1:48
The load? 370 GR T/C Maxi Ball; 80 grs Goex 2f.

If I go about it again, (should be able to draw a ML cow elk tag next year), and since I have changed to a 1:28 inline, I will probably stick with a 250-300 grain Sabot, or a bigger conical, and a little more powder, though 80 grains was sufficient, that 75 yards was about what I figured should be the max range with that load.

Later,

Marcial

RE: working up a load?
 

"The load? 370 GR T/C Maxi Ball; 80 grs Goex 2f."

Dont feel bad, at least you got your elk! I put 1 shot high into the spine area, chased the deer down, put another shot into it, chased it down even more before cutting the things throat. Maxiballs are horrible and i have a hard time just using them on paper.

80g 2f and that 370g conical is more than enough when using other conicals.

RE: working up a load?
 

First of all i gotta thank Chap here for the link to that article wtitten by Randy Wakeman....i wrote the guy an email telling him i enjoyed his article and asked him his opinion on a few things.....not only did the guy wtite me back quickly, he called me on the phone yesterday afternoon....i'll bet we spent a good 45 minutes on the phone too...this guy was knowlegable, very opinionated on certain things, and had a bit of an attitude going regarding some of the crap they sell folks out there today...it was a great conversation and i think i found the missing link in my inconsistancytrying to get some decent groups going. or at least one of them...

although most of Randy Wakemans experience was leaning heavily towards the newer inline guns, he was helpful with sugestions for my side lock TC Hawken....he told me the 1:48 twist barrel was a compromise TC put out to be able to shoot both round ball, and conicles, but doubted that it would ever be a real tack driver...

my biggest discovery was that i think i got funky powder going here...this bottle of pyrodex i've been shooting with, i opened up in the summer of 04....yep....a 4 year old opened bottle, ANDliving in Oregon...this could very well be a big part of my problem.....needless to say i picked up some fresh stuff and a couple boxes of 385 Honady's to try.....i'm not giving up on the 410's quite yet though...i did find about 6 more boxes available locally.... I too hate those TC Maxi balls.... what a pain in the arse to deal with....that damn lube is either dry and falling off, or turns to snot....i couldn't get them going at all on paper either, but then again i was using funky powder....

i'll let you know how this all pans out this weekend. My wifes out of town and i'm obsessing this weekend on my hunting gear....Kirk

RE: working up a load?
 

I've shot three deer with maxiball and not one of them went more then 30 yards after being hit. I shot them with an old Renegade and 80 grains of powder. I got complete pass through and excellent wound channels. I just can not see why they would not work.

One point, these were casted of soft lead and not store bought...

RE: working up a load?
 

Kirk.. if you're shooting maxiball out of a T/C Hawkins what I would do is start on a clean barrel.

Load some Pyrodex P ... about 70 grains. Put a wad between the powder and the flat bottom of that conical. If you have no wads, pour your powder, tap the butt of the rifle on your toe to level the load, then dump 20 grains of corn meal (tea spoon full)on top of the powder. Now seat that maxiball and try that. It should tighten up your groups.

The Pyrodex P is a hotter powder then RS and will get that conical moving faster up the bore of that barrel. The wad or corn meal will protect the bottom of the conical and also help so you don't get blow by in the charge..

There are other conicals out there to try as well.

RE: working up a load?
 

kirk - having your Mr. Wakeman saying that he doubtsthe T/C 1:48 barrel would ever be a real tack driver is not a true statement. I've had a couple of these barrels that were extremely accurate. I have a 54 cal right now that will shoot cloverleaf clusters of PRBs at 50 yds without any trouble.
IMO most all MLs will be good shooters once you find the magic combination of powder and bullet. But to me that's part of the fun in shooting them.

RE: working up a load?
 

there was actually allot more to that statement about that rifle never being a tack driver bro....we were talking a 100 yards using conicles...he said there are good shootingbarrels and bad shooting barrels designed for different kinds of rounds. the 1:66 with a longer barrel is going to shoot RB a lot better than a 28" barrel with a 1:48 generally. and a 1:28 is going to shoot a sabot with a hot load more accurately...But there are always exceptions to the rule....i can personally testify to this now...

all i know is that Randy Wakeman cut through all the BS and put me on track here...yesterday i went out and used pyrodex "P" , put a musket nozzle on the old girl, and dialed that thing into less than 3 inch groups at a hundred yards using iron sights...i did have a peep sight on the rear, which i shoot much more accurately with... i know many guys that cant shoot that kind of group with a high powered rifle with a scope.....i had that hawken sand bagged ant that is all i';m going to get out of her is 2-3" at a hundred yards using loose powder measures... itook the time to weigh every load plus or minus .05 grains, swabbed after Evey load, and used the set trigger....if i would have Benn using my old 300 sav i could have grouped a half inch hole....i took that much time with it....

I'm very pleased with the results....now that i have my "sweet load" which by the way Dave is just under 70 gr by volume of pyrodex "P" ....you hit that one perfectly.... i intend to burn another box of lead shooting off hand at 50 - 75 yards.... this will be my average shot in the jungle type area i hunt...there could be a rare cross canyon opportunity that i wanted the 100 yard option for a nice standing shot. I'd find me a tree or do a 3 point stance for that...but the conditions would have to be perfect....i'm an old archery hunter at heart, but i can shoot most anything pretty fair...

i still want to know what this corn meal thing is all about Dave...i'm not being sarcastic either...i'm really curious about this.....Kirk

RE: working up a load?
 

Kirk - Sorry if I offended you. Wasn't meant that way. I am sure your source has had plenty of experieced with MLs. But, as with all gun writers, not everything they say is etched in stone.
Personnally, as had a lot of other guys in this forum, Ihave worked up loads for many a ML. And I have yet to find a GM or T/C barrel that was in good condition that I could not get to shoot well, if not exceptional.
I'm glad you found your rifle's sweet spot and wish you liuck on your future hunts.
ps: Like dave said - the corn meal or wad acts as a cushion protecting the base of the bullet and helping to prevent gas blow by for more consistant pressure - hence better accuracy.

RE: working up a load?
 

You didn't offend me at all Bronko....i think you are seeing some bleed over of my frustration is all...i've always prided myself as being a pretty darn good marksman at most anything i shoot...these dad burn muzzle loaders will humble a guy right now....

regarding the wad thing....i could see where a flat bottom bullet could perform better using a wad, but these Hornady bullets have a concave bottom, that are designed to flair out as the powder goes off and fill the riflings....do you think using a wad will help this style of bullet too?

i tried a few wads the other day, and just saw one more thing that could screw up myself....how do you keep that wad from going sideways on you getting it down the barrel? i tried sticking it to the bottom of the bullet and still wasn't certain how it acctuall sat on the powder....

i understand now the evolution of centerfire cartriges....these muzzle loaders are a pain in the arse!

RE: working up a load?
 

Nothing is ever certain in muzzle loading, but in my experance the wad will improve accuracy about 70% of the time in most guns.
I have to put a dry wad on the powder add enough corn meal the way I originally deceided how much was by putting a wad at the lower end of the QLA and filling it level to the top of the muzzle then put a greased wad on top of that, it works. But since I will be shooting the new Hornady bullet for a conical I can get minute of angle by dumping 100gr in and shoving the bullet down.

RE: working up a load?
 

Well i've shot with the wad...and without it now...and honestly i couldn't see the difference myself...

i'll tell you one thing that DOES seriously concern me is the lubrication from these pre lubed bullets melting in hot weather and fouling the powder...the Horandy greese doesn't seem to melt quit as bad as the TC Bore butter does...THAT stuff is bad! in temps over 80 degrees it turns to liquid completely...i was out in 90 degree weather on sunday and opened up my squeeze tube, and it was about the same as 30 weight motor oil...i could just pour it out of the tube!

so tell me what happens when you got all the lube on a bullet and hunt all day in warm weather? i'm thinking this could be a bad scene here....elk walks out, and all you get is your cap going off and about half your powder....you think having a dry wad would soak up the bullet lube? i got half a notion to do a corn meal load, then a wad and bullet with no powder at all....let it sit all day, then pull the bullet just to see how much of that lube the wad soaked up....i supose i could do the same just putting a dry patch under the bullet and let her set....i'll bet those TC maxi balls would make a mess with all the lube they put on those things.... i'm seriously thinking good old bees wax might just be the best lube out there...you can leave that stuff out in hot weather and it gets pretty soft...but it doesn't liquify.......anyone need some TC Bore butter out there? i'll send it to you no problem....might have to use dry ice though....LOL!

RE: working up a load?
 

thats why i like powerbelts. Nothing pisses you off worse than dropping a bullet and having to wipe dirt off the grease,deal with the grease period. Even the hornady great plains are messy.

RE: working up a load?
 

Wish i could use em here in Oregon, i looked at them today... we have an "All lead bullet" requirement, side locks and iron sights only. those powerbelts have that plastic nozzle at the base making them illeagal to hunt with..no inlineseither for the muzzle loader seasons here, but you can use them in general season centerfire rifle season if you have balls enough to go out there and brave the crazy drunk road hunters....i quit high powered rifle hunting 20 years ago...too dangerous and too manyhunters out there in the woods...