Need help with bullet choice
 

I shoot a CVA Wolf that came with the Powerbelts. I am looking for some suggestions for a short range bullet. My shots will be at a max of 100 yards. Most probably to 50 yards or so. Any suggestions. I shoot 100 Grn 777 pelletts.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

what grain of powerbelts?

Switch to loose powder and if they are the 245-295 powerbelts, 80 grains of loose powder will be all thats needed.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

If you live in a state that allows sabots then the possibilites are endless practially. XTP's, Gold Dots, Noslers, shockwaves ect...You can buy in bulk or the Noslers and XTPs come prepackagedw/supplied sabots. The Noslers would be my pick if you don't mind the price. 100g 777 is plenty.

If you must shoot a conical then I suggestNo-Excuses or Bullshops.Probably no needfor more than 90g.

I'm sure others will chime in w/good suggestions as well but those are my suggestions.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

Thanks for the suggestions. I live in NC, so I can shoot anything. I am looking at the Powerbelts, the Hornady SST and XTP or the Knight branded Barnes bullets. My biggest concern is terminal performance on game at shorter yardage. A 100 yard shot woould be a rarity. More like between 30-80.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

Sounds like the area you hunt in NC is exactly what I hunt in VA and TN. 95% of my shots are between 30-50yrds. Every once in a while I shoot from one ridge to the next and get a 75ish yard shot. So I understand your situation. I shoot the XTP MAGs in 300g and they'll knock the snot out of deer at that range. I've never lost a deer w/them and I think the farthest I had one run was about 40 yards. Personally, the only one out of your list I wouldn't hunt with is the Powerbelt. At the distances our shots are they tend to either overexpand or fragment even w/moderate charges. Good luck to ya hope ya find something that shoots well!

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

TNHagies,

What powder and charge are you pushing that 300 xtp mag with?

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

This year 90g BH 209. Last year, I shot 85g of 777. And for the past I'd say 10 years before that90-100g of Pyrodex RS.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

Most of the bullets on the market will work if you put them in the right place. Its not rocket science. Put the bullet in the right place and let it work for you.

If I was going to shoot a Hornady XTP I would try a .430 diameter 300 gr (non magnum) XTP in crushed rib Harvester sabot. They shoot well in my CVA. With 80-100 grains of powder, no deer is going to take that too well.

Other good bullets are the Nosler, Barnes, Buffalo Bullet SSB, Shockwaves. All you can do is get some of the bullets and try them. All of them will do the job.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

XTP. No need for anything more expensive for your purposes.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

dmboggs74

No doubt in my mind the XTP's will work great - but were it me I would use .452/250 grain Speer Gold Dot. They are bonded and will not come a part...

Stay away from the PB's if you can...

Speer Gold Dots...

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

If you want easy and cheap, go with the pre-packaged XTP's - those tend to shoot well out of the Wolf and perform well. If you want easy and not as cheap, but with better terminal performance, go with Barnes Expander MZ. If you want to play around some, there's no end to the combinations you can work up.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

I just bought xtp's and sabots in bulk. $20 for 50 xtp's and 50 sabots as opposed to $13 for 20 prepackaged. Just a thought if you plan on doing a good bit of shooting. The xtp's should be all the bullet you will ever need.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

That 250 Gold Dot is my go bullet for woods hunting I have take 5 deer with a back edge of the shoulder shot and the were all bang flops 110 of 777 [1900]or 110 of BH209 [2000].
My go to bullet when I might have to shoot over 150 yds is the 200gr SW 120gr BH209 [2250] 3" high at a 100yd 3" low at 200yd dead on at175yd.
The Triumph is a mean machine.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

Here are some 250 grain Gold Dots shot into damp sandy loam at 100 yards.



Here are some 300 grain Gold Dots shot into damp sandy loam at 100 yards. Take your pick.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

I am with SabotLoader, speer gold dot 300g with Crushed rib sabot, 100g 777, Winchester or Federal Primer. This is a speer Gold dot 300g taken from a Doe shot with a tC FL with 70g of Goex.
Chap Gleason

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

If the Barnes MZ do not work for you, then try the barnes 45843 300g 45/70 bullet using a crushed rib sabot. Hollow point is just exactly like the MZ. MZ is .452, 45843 is .458 diameter, fit tight, shoots tight. "Aim Small Shoot Small". Barnes are EXCELLENT bullets, high cost, but definite better terminal performance. Chap Gleason

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

Long shanks perfect mushroom---thing of beauty "Craig Boddington", and I agree. If a bullet totally pancakes out then it is not that far from fragmenting, note what happens to Frontier Gander's PB at 70, 80, and 100g then 125, they totally pancake out then the next speed up they fragment. So in my mind the best bullets are those that have long shanks and are perfectly expanded out at the head of the bullet, like the 300g Gold Dot in the picture, which is what I shoot. In general the 300g bullet for bullet has a higher BC, therefore retaining energy to penetrate thru the animal on long shot. I have shot some 240 Knights and 250 XTP and and killed deer with them, they did not shoot thru and were generally on the off side under the hide. I have also shot the 295g PB, and I had fragmenting problems with those, but I was pushing them with 150g of powder. That was before I joined the forum and got educated on loads, PB, etc.
Best wishes,
Chap

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

Here are some pancakes.




80,90,100g 405g AT. Powerbelts are PURE lead with a thin copper coating to prevent lead build up. You can NOT compare modern Pistol bullets to an actual full bore projectile thats pure lead.


295g HP @ 100 yards with 80g pyro Select. Hit my 2x4 and then went into sand behind my target,



More 405 AT's that i fired into some real nasty sand,


Now here is some tests i did for Forum member Saxman,
these are 245g AT with 80g PS which IS the maximum limit for this bullet.


Hollow Point 245 pancake with 80 grains No matter what range. Thats what the HP does, Its made to rapidly expand while the Aerotip slows down this process and prevents break up.
LEFT: HP. RIGHT: AT Both were fired at the same range and same charge.


Powerbelt recommends 150g mag charges for shots Over 140 yards, never intended for 30 yard shots. Especially with pure lead.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

Thank you FG. Chap

Dmboggs74, These are good pictures of what I mean on the charge being too much and pancaking out the PowerBelt. Chap Gleason

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

Dmboggs74,

If your Wolf has a real tight barrel like mine, I would highly recommend the Hornady 250g SST with the Low Drag sabots. Not only do they load significantly easier, but they also come 25 to a box for ~ $14.00.
The Gold Dots are working well in my KRB but were too tight in my Wolf.
Good luck and have fun making smoke.

James

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

jascoesens

Have tried the Gold Dots in an MMP HPH-3p EZ Load sabot? They are the same as a low drag except black... or have you tried a "crush rib" they are even thinner yet?

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

cory where did ya get that bulk from. xtp's right know are my goto bullets.

I am using tc cheap shots, which are 240gr and matched with tc magexpress sabots, can get them for atmost $10, another bullet I mainly sight with is the tc sure fires, it is 230gr bullet it is about the same price. I use the powerbelt rule with most of the bullets I use, don't push them hard.

the surefires are 90grs of pyro rs (left) and cheapshot are 85gr of pyro p (right) shot at 50yrds into a sand bucket.




thought I add some work I have done.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

James,
I just got the Cabelas shooting catalog, and the TC SW went up to $26.99 for 30, the Hornady SST with low drag are now $13 for 15, so the SST/SWare about the $1/bullet of Barnes or Nosler. They use to be about.50 each.Good choice in 300g, 250 is OK for deer, but 300 holds together better.
Chap Gleason

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

Corey,
In my opinion these bullets are too pancaked out, meaning they are being shot too hard with high velocity, much better to drop your charge 10 to 20 grains. Look at the Gold Dot 300g that Semisane showed on page 2 of this thread, man they were a thing of beauty.Your bulletslike they are soft enough to wrap around the core and keep going, but really what that means is the bullet is spending all it energy wrapping the bullet not driving flesh, bone and blood vessels out. This is of course an "art", but if you do some reading about bullet design, they design bullets in their velocity range to have long shanks and expanded head (Swift Scarraco, Nosler Partition, A-Frame, etc). If you compare the XTP to the Gold Dot head to head you will see the GD are better, because they cost about the same, $20 for 50 and they do not fragment or pancake. The XTPs will loose their jacket, now you undoubly will have a dead deer, but you will not get shoot thru with the XTP 250, with the GD you will. Now I like the XTP Mag, same cost, but tougher jacket, higher velocity range. I have shot them and I have taken deer with them, they are very good for a low cost bullet.

</true confessions>
I use to have a "low cost" attitude about bullets when I first started MLing, basically "any bullet will do". I believe that is true for bow shots behind the shoulder on broadside deer, but then you start talking about penetration, no fragmentation, shoot thru and expansion you quickly must go to a bonded or premiuum bullet to get that kind of performance. I now believe only a bonded bullet or premiuum bullet should be used for hunting, because it has to do with game killing ability, and you want a bullet that kills game quickly and efficiently at any angle that the shot presents itself, i.e. quartering to you front shoulder shot, or straight on brisket shots. For the bone shotsthe premiuum or bonded bullets give much better penetration into the vitals, and if your hunting thick cover like we do in VA, then you may only get a quarting to you shot.

I base this change of attitude on this scripture verse:

Proverbs 12:10 (Whole Chapter)
A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.

So I have to regard the life of the beast that I hunt (the Bible says that "God gave them over to their hand, over and over, so where do we get our hunting ability?"), and shootthe beast that God give over tomy handso it does not suffer (quick death, no lingering death from poor hits), that is what "have regardth the life" means,otherwise my actions are cruel and I am a wicked man. An yes, I have had deer get away in the past from lack of penetration on good broadside shot (150g, 30 yards with 295g PB hollowpoint), but I have learned to shoot premiuum bullets, and that has made a huge difference. Premiuum is not high cost, premiuum is bonded or well constructed (Nosler with H, Barnes with all copper), does not fragment, expands beautifully in soild, long shanks (like Semi's 300g pictures), excellent accuracy. That is what premiuum means to me.


Hope that helps someboday along the way, buying your gun in not your most important MLing decision, buying your bullet is your single most important ML decision/choice, "choose well Grasshopper".
</end true confessions>

Respectfully submitted in year of our Lord 7/4/08,
Chap Gleason

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

I am a reformed Nosler fan. Tired of buying 50 bullets at the price double other very good bullets I started experminting.
In my 50 Cals I like the 250gr. t0 300gr. Speer Gold dots in MMP sabots. In the 54 I use the50 cal 300gr. hollow pointSpeer Gold Dots in MMP purple sabots. I also think a person couldn't go wrong with those XTP's which have killed hundreds of deer since sabots were first interduced. But if your made of money and it grows ont the trees around your property do go with the Nosler partitons.

:) Al

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

I have about 40 Noslers left myself, and I have about 4 boxes of 50 of the 300g Gold Dots. I will let my son shoot the Noslersup this year in his Knight LRH, I will switch to the GD. I plan on shooting the Gold Dots in my Omega, but in my Savage I plan on staying with a Barnes Origonal or a Barnes 45843 TSX Flat nose. I hear ya, I am falling off that Nosler wagon myself based on education of this board---SL shooting Gold Dots, Semisane pictures of Gold Dot performance. Lee Lemoye liking the Gold Dots and having good results with them, I cango on and on withnames that have cemented my attitude toward GD. I have heard no problems with the Gold Dots, we are all in the process of learning.I do believe the very best bullet on the market today based on COST and PERFORMANCE is the Speer GD, however if you forget cost and want to just go performance. Then Nosler Partition and Barnes are the go to bullets. I can't argue your utility metric of cost and performance, since that is your personal choice set. If another person's personal choice set is performance only, then they will go with the best. Some argue that that they have a 45K truck a 150K land and cabin a 1200 scope/gun combo, what the heck is a $1 bullet? For those folk who only argue performance go with Barnes MZ, TMZ or 45843 TSX 300g Flat Nose. So it depends on your choise set. if your choice set is cost only then you will go with XTPs since they are a bit less than the GD. So it is "your choice utility function" in economics. In my pervious post I said my choice set of variables was

performance and morality

I tried to tie morality into the decision, because I believe it to be important, because God says it is. He calls folks wicked if they are cruel to a beast. I don't want to be cruel to a beast in killing it.
So allyyooper your chose utility function is cost and performance. Other folks have other choise utility functions. Now we are gettin' "high fallutin".
Happy 4th and my God bless you and your family and your hunting,
Chap

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

Re Hornady Low Drag SSTs, check this out>
http://www.grafs.com/fc/browse.php?q...=az&p=3419


Also, regarding sabots thickness ( or more properly, "Ease of Loading"). In my CVA Wolf, I have foung the MMP 3-petal sabot to be considerably easier to load than the Harvester crush-ribs.

James

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

Chap, I have trouble seeing the need for those specalized copper bullets on deer all my deer since I started using Gold Dots have been bang Flops, how do you improve on that? But I also believe they do have there place on very large and heavy animals they are the best. Lee

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

I have a question:

If you have hunted for let's say 10 years w/someting other than a GD, Barnesor Nosler and have always got pass throughs, never lost a deer and never had deer travel more than 50 yards after the shot, why would you change? Clearly it's working. In my mind that person is going to have complete confidence in that bullet and if they change bullets mid-game is going to cause a loss in confidence.

I like the GD and the Noslers. (No one in my hunting group has ever killed anything w/a Barnes so I can't speak first hand on their performace) But I guess my point is that you don't HAVE TO shoot them to kill deer and kill them quickly and ethically. Yes they preform very well but they are not the be-all end-all of bullets. If what you're saying is true that hunters and not being ethical by using bullets other than the 3 listed above then why is everyone OK with people using round balls?

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

cory
I buy the xtp mags in bulk at gordonsville sporting goods. $12.99/50.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

I can't disagree with you Lee. I am shoot some tomorrow with Blackhorn 209 in my Omega. Will see how they do with the Blackhorn. Chap

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

You should not change, based on your experience. My comments are really directed toward those looking to change bullet (the bullet thread is "Need Help with Bullet Choice".). As for ethics, I explained my bullet selection mindset, this is America, land of the free, your free to do as you see fit based on the variables you think are important, I was just explaining mine (Performance was my king not cost).As for PRB being OK or unethical, for me with my eyesight and age I believe they are not for me, so I can'tuse them any longer (I used them 2 seasons, then Pa changed law and OKed sabots---amen for that). Hope that clears things up for you TBHaggies regarding my logic.
Best Wishes,
Chap

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

PRB's have done the job for Hundreds of years. No bullet including conicals, sabots have been used longer than the PRB.

And whats eye sight have to do with the projectile being used? If you cant shoot straight, no projectile can help you on that.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

Sorry Chap, didn't mean to sound like I was attacking your way of thinking. I just find it very frustrating when people say that their choice is bullet, gun, powder or any other hunting accessory is 'the best' and that everyone should use what they use. Perhaps the tread just struck me wrong this morning (maybe I hadn't had my coffee yet:D) It's true, the bmboggs74 was asking for suggestions and it kinda turned from that. I guess what I'm saying is that I like it when people give their suggestions and then let the hunter choose for themselves. If I wanted people to tellme whatI should believe, then I'll just watch NBC:D:D

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

Right, I agree give them options and what you think best. ABC is better at that!!!
Best Wishes,
Chap

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

gordonsville is about an hour maybe hour and half from me, might justfy the gas I pay that for 30pk of tc's "bulk".

gun shops around me are always out of the 100 count bulks of every mfg. of .430, .451, and .452.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

I think it's closer to an hour and a half plus, not sure though. We should plan a range sesson sometime. If there's a range near your house I can pick up a box for you and bring them along. Maybe we can get that new englander figured out for you to use this fall. Let me know what you think.

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

closest range to me I beleave is out in west augusta. I'll do an search and see

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

Some states are starting to outlaw lead bullets for some types of hunting is special places. If you fall into that area then the Barnes bullets are about the onlyest choice you have.

:) Al

RE: Need help with bullet choice
 

FG
There is a great article in the January 08 issue of Guns and Ammo Magazine by Sam Fadala that I think you would like.It is the Sam Fadala who wrote the Black Powder Mling Handbook, anyway the title of the article is" Smackdown! Broad Meplat Bullets in .45-70 persuasion are proving that big and slow is the way to go"--which goes against the grain of most "fast and smaller" to match CF shooting. The article is not online that I could find, but here is a quote from it:



Basically the Bullstop and other conicals with the large flat meplathave great penetration and performance. One of the quotes said "accuracy is king, but penetration is queen", that is a great quote with regard to bullet performance on game. Anyway see if you can get a copy, 'cause itis an excellent read.Best Wishes,
Chap