I did a comparison today...
 

After having poor consistency with Shockey's American Pioneer Powder in pellet form I wanted to try something else. The picture below shows 90 grain 777. The post below shows my group with 100 grains American Pioneer. These shots were taken at 40 yards with Thompson/Center Superglide Shock Wave Sabot Bullets in 250 grain. MyML is a H&R NEF Sidekick. I swabbed the same waybetween each shot.

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

American Pioneer 100 Grains Thompson/Center Superglide Shock Wave Sabot Bullets in 250 grain 40 Yards

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

You have not seen anything till you get BH209 working for you. I went through the same set of problems, ended up using 777 crud ring for a while, the step up to BH is a big one especially if the cost bothers you as far as I am concerned its worth it. The APP can be made to work good but you have to have a dehydrator and dry it out it will collect moisture no matter what you do if dry and packed with 40 pounds of wad pressure when you load it it will group unless you get a bad can[ which I did that's when I tried nasty 777 my Omega did fine with Pyrodex but the Triumph did not like it and 777 did group well even if I had to clean between shots

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

Looks like 90 grains of Triple 7 is a winner in your gun with the shockwaves. For the costs of bh209 I'd continue using the Triple 7. Nice shooting.

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

How much is the Blackhorn 209? Where does the "Crud Ring" form?

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

I agree! IMO it's worth the extra money. I don't get the crud ring but I still prefer BH 209 over 777. Granted I've never shot the APP but from what I've been told it's not the most accurate powder.

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

$29.99 for 10oz, not including hazmat ($20 or so) and shipping ($9 or more).
if you are lucky and got a store that has it in stock plus tax.

I would stick with the 777. you can catch walmart at the end of the season and catch it for like $11 a pound, or $23 to $25,

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

Nice group with the 777. You might pick up a can of Pyrodex RS and give that a try too.

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

The American Pioneer you mention were in pellet form. Were you crushing the pellets with your ramrod before you seat the bullet? I was talking to a person with basically the same complaint of poor accuracy from the APP pellets. He was told to crush the sticks first, then seat the bullet with lots of pressure. Also do not swab between shots with the APP. They claim it is not necessary.

That group with the Triple Se7en is excellent. And it appears since you asked where the crud ring forms, that you do not experience a crud ring. So you have to look at the benefit of going to Blackhorn 209. No swabbing, does not rust the barrel as fast as other powders, excellent velocity. Then the bad points... COST!! So ask yourself, is the cost worth the idea of not swabbing between shots? I clean my rifles the same day I shoot them whether they are being shot with Pyrodex, Black Powder, Triple Se7en or even the modern center fires.. So for me the Black Horn does not justify the cost. But it would be fun to play with a bottle of it and see if it makes your gun shoot as good as it does in many of the other rifles that are being shot with it.

Very nice shooting there !!!!

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

I am not surprised at this, see this:

Chap

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

compared to this:

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

Compared to this. Look at the deviations in speed on the JSG and APP. That is your reason for all over the page, different pressure and velocity therefore not accuate. Chap

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

Heck I just paid $34.95 at Clark Brothers in Warrenton Va. Hard stuff to find called 3 different places. I am trying it this weekend is my Omega, looking forward to it. Chap

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

I just will not pay the price for BH. I've been reading the reports on three or four different forums. They ALL started out glowing - fantastic accuracy. Some of the later reports lead me to believe that, except for the cleaning issue, BH won't do anything T-7 will do.

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

If it is no swabbing between shots, it is worth it in my opinion. I already shoot smokeless, so I can alway do that, but would like to continue to shoot inline, just to stay with the fellowship of the forum. Chap

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

Semisane

Shot them both now and totally agree ya... as long as I can get T7 so much cheaper per oz. than BH - I'll keep shooting T7. Running a patch does not bother me a bit, except maybe when hunting but I can load 4-5 before I have to patch and if I miss that many times I shouldn't be hunting.

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

Thanks for the comparisons info. I went back out today and repeated my results with my 777 and the Sidekick. I also took my lady's Triumph and tried the American Pioneer in it. I got great groups with APP in the Triumph with the same Shockwaves and even Powerbelts. It seems that gun (The Triumph) shoots everything very nicely, which leads me to believe it may be the way the breach plug nests the 209 primer. My Sidekick has the plastic primer holders and may be less efficient in transferring the spark.

To answer Cayugad's questions, no I don't break up the powder pellets I just make sure they are seated prior to seating the projectile.

I would try BH209 ifI could find it locally but from the research I have done I do not think it will work very well in the Sidekick due to the type of breach plug/ Primer Holderit has. I am looking into a custom breach plug to hold the 209 primers like the TC has but have not found one yet. I really don't want to mess with the 25 acp cartriges and primers at this point. So I guess I will just stick with the 777 and swab. That's fine with me becauseI really place accuracy much higher than swabbing.

RE: I did a comparison today...
 

Ihave abunch of Jim Shockey hunting videos and i noticed in the mule deer video , his camera man/guide Cody Robbins is loading777 pellets into the Encore that all there clients use . In another seen Cody's brother is alsore-loading 777 pellets in the same Encore . I realy like Jim and he seem's like a fun guy and i would love to go on one of his guided hunts . But i am not so sure he/they use what they advertise .