I used to live in Oklahoma long ago but moved to Florida. I have just started to hunt again over the years and have added a centerfire rifle(Tikka T3 Deluxe), Bow (08 Drenaline), Shotgun (Benelli Montafeltro silver), Rimfire(Tricked out 22 mag). There is just one glaring hole in my ability to hunt all seasons and that would be a muzzleloader. I usually will read up on whatever purchase I am planning for usually hundreds of hours before comitting to anything (yes I am anal retentive). From what I have beeen able to gather on this site you all seem pretty much in the know for the blackpowder and do not mind sharing it. You guys seem also not to pick each others choices apart like the Bowhunting section does so I am going to ask a few questions and see where this leads.

1. I am considering 2 guns: Thompson, Triumph.....or....Knight,KRB. The knight is a lot less expensive and it seems to me that the guns in effect are very similar. Which would you choose and please qualify why?

2. I like my Trijicon TR22 scope. I am thinking of mounting one of these on the rifle I buy. Do BP rifles have that much more of a kick than say a 30-06?

3. There seems to be a lot of back and forth between 100 grains and 150 grains. If 100 grains does the job then what benefit would I derive from 150 grains? Flatter shooting? More kenetic enrgy? etc.

4. There are so many bullets out there to choose from but I just want to get the same performance that I get from my Hornady ammo in my 30-06. Is this possible or do the BP guns just punch a hole and go on through. On that note why do BP guns use such huge ammo? Would not a smaller, lighter, yet faster flying round be favorable?

5. Any other BP rifles out there that you feel I overlooked? Money is not really an issue in purchase but I would like to keep it under 2000 dollars for the complete set up.

#1 I much favor the Triumph it is the best muzzle loader I have ever owned, an Omega is also very good.
#2 Any good high quality scope will work fine, some of the Knights hang fire with the new powderand it is the only powder that is noncorrosive and you dont have to wipe between shots with.
#3 Some people want max accuracy some want mag loads. The best answer is to start at 90 gr and work up every 10 grwith several different bullets most will start loseing accuracy by the time you rech 130 gr.
#4In a word no black powder guns shoot at the pressure levels as a shotgun not the 60,000 psi that a high powered rifle shoots, most places the avarage kill is under 50 yds anyway so the handicap is more only having one shot than any thing else.
#5 If you can use smokeless powderin all the places where you hunt you might consider a Savage, most of us can not.
#6 If you dont use the new Black horn powder be sure to clean the gun well the same day after you shoot it some powderis VERY corrosive, my inlines may never have any corrosive powder in them again I dont like the mess of scrubbing the with hot water or wipeing between shots; with Black Horn 209 its load shoot and if you feel like cleaning it is a matter of running a couple patches with Hoppes #9 through and an oil patch.
The Knights are a fairly high quality gun but I would not get one if I wanted to use the new powder; but if you want a heavy gun and you live where it is necessary to use thoses big heavy bullets with out a sabot some people prefer them for that, personally I dont shoot mine any more since I got the Triumph and a case of this newpowder.

I would choose the Knight KRB unless I absolutely wanted to shoot the new Blackhorn 209 powder. I would also hesitate to recommend the KRB to someone that strictly wanted to use open sights, not because of the sights but because of the stock design - it's pretty much designed for a scope as you have to really scrunch down to use the irons. I have not had the best of luck with my Knight KP1 (VERY early production) but I think it is another you should consider. Another owner recently posted excellent performance using BH209 in his KP1. The KP1 is also a bit lighter than the KRB and is easier to prime (IMHO).

The Triumph is getting some great owner reviews and fires the new powder nicely. I don't like the TC Omega/Triumph for two reasons - QLA is a big negative in my book and the trigger guard area is quite small on both rifles - too small for me.

Lots of people use Trijicon (or similar) on their inlines with good results. Recoil depends upon rifle and load. The Triumph is a kicker with heavy loads. The KRB or the KP1 would handle recoil better. Stout loads in a Triumph would probably exceed the recoil of a typical '06, while being less in the heavier rifles such as are the Knights.

There are other options aside from 100 or 150 grains, even using pellets. I prefer loose powder for reasons of economy and the ability to tune loads down to the grain. I think everyone should start with loose and then have basis for comparison of a few pellets. 100 grains of most any powder behind most any reasonable bullet weight will kill most anything that walks this planet. Please do NOT start muzzleloading thinking two or three pellets and a Powerbelt are the ticket to success.

You will NOT get 30-06 performance from any non-smokeless muzzleloader. Sabot bullets are available in the 200 to 300 grain weight range that perform very well. The Parker bullets are repeatedly bragged upon as among the best ( http://www.parkerproductionsinc.com/) although there are lots of bullets that do very well for less money. Good ol' Hornady XTPs can be hard to beat in the sabot world. I prefer to cast my own heavy conicals which I use for both target and hunting (except in my Contender G2). There is almost no end to bullet selection in muzzleloading. Hornady may soon sell some bulk bullets of the SST flavor that should be a great choise.

Knight KP1, Knight-Talley scope base/rings combo ( http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/manufacturers_id/102/products_id/53726), perhaps a different scope as I'm not sure a Trijicon would mount in those (Leupold 2x7 would be great), a couple of containers of BH209, some of those Parker Ballistic Extremes, some Winchester or CCI 209 primers... should be a fine start.

There there is all the other "stuff" you will need for cleaning but it won't be nearly as much with the above combo as it would be with others. I do strongly recommend a good, solid range rod be included from the start.

I like my KP1 alot and it works perfectly with BH209. I would also look hard at the Knight Disc Extreme, there is really no weak points to this muzzleloader... it will shoot any powder, you have the option of the full plastic jacket or not, Knight will adjust the trigger to your liking for free, it's darn accurate, and the SS/ black comp. model will only run you about $350 shipped. I would go with theWarne M826 bases and med. Warne Maxima rings and a quality scope (Leupold, Busnell Elite, Nikon).

I perrty much agree with UC. I my self would buy the knight just for two reasons. One it is made in the USA to many products made in other countrys now that the residents can't buy. Two it doesn't have that QLA thing on the end of the barrel.
I liked T/C up until they did the QLA thingy.

Al

1. I am considering 2 guns: Thompson, Triumph.....or....Knight,KRB. The knight is a lot less expensive and it seems to me that the guns in effect are very similar. Which would you choose and please qualify why?

Both are great guns and backed by great companies. Both are going to be excellent shooters. If conicals were in your future for say some out west hunting in Colorado where it is conical only.. then the Knight KRB would be the choice.

Since you are going to scope them, they are both going to shoot a sabot load about equal. ALTHOUGH.. I have read some very impressive reports of the Triumph and its handling of Blackhorn 209 and some of the groups it is printing are just hard to believe for a muzzleloader. I am sure that once Knight redesigns the breech plug for the KRB it too will be a Blackhorn 209 shooting rifle. And I would not purchase the rifle solely on the fact of it will shoot one brand of powder better. We got along for countless years without Blackhorn and I suspect many of us will survive countless more not shooting it. Just for the nostalgia, I would take the KRB.

Something else to consider is your body build and the fit of the stock. The Knights, you tend to lay flatter to the stock and barrel. So for that reason, since the rifles are equal pretty much. Get out to a store and handle both of them. See how they fit you. See how they shoulder and balance for you. Then really sit down and look at them. Which one makes you smile the most. That's the one for you.

2. I like my Trijicon TR22 scope. I am thinking of mounting one of these on the rifle I buy. Do BP rifles have that much more of a kick than say a 30-06?

Black powder rifles recoil is based on what kind of charge you are shooting, and the weight of the rifle. The Triumph is a light rifle. So it makes sense that there should be more recoil. Having not shot either, I can not say. Do they have more of a kick.. more of a push I might think. I have been scope kissed on the brim of the hat by my muzzleloaders. But that normally is entirely my fault because I get lax with my address of the rifle and it then reminds me to pay attention. Even a center fire will do that. So I do not think they kick anymore then the other. I do like 3.5-4 inches of eye relief on my rifles..

3. There seems to be a lot of back and forth between 100 grains and 150 grains. If 100 grains does the job then what benefit would I derive from 150 grains? Flatter shooting? More kenetic enrgy? etc.

I sometimes think the design of the magnum muzzleloader was the worst thing they ever did to the sport. We killed deer, elk, bear, you name it we shot it, with 80 grains of powder long before a 150 grain magnum rifle came on the market. Of course 100 grains will get the job done. 150 grains on the other hand for extreme long shots at LARGE elk type game might be a benefit. Although if I ever hunt elk it will be with 100 grains of 3f powder and a 500 grain conical bullet. So with the right bullet, and more powder ... (IF YOUR RIFLE EVEN LIKES MAGNUM LOADS... ) you will have a flatter shooting projectile. Instead, take the two charges. What ever shoots more accurate and you can place that shot. That is the charge I would use. I would then select the right bullet for the job. After that all you need is a knife for field dressing.

4. There are so many bullets out there to choose from but I just want to get the same performance that I get from my Hornady ammo in my 30-06. Is this possible or do the BP guns just punch a hole and go on through. On that note why do BP guns use such huge ammo? Would not a smaller, lighter, yet faster flying round be favorable?

Black powder projectiles you will soon discover really lay a world of smack on what they hit. When shooting sabots, you normally get excellent expansion, deep large wounds and even a pass through is not uncommon. They do not just punch a hole and go through. Even a roundball expands and makes a nasty wound channel.

As to which is better, the light fast expanding sabot or the large conical.. there are two schools of thought there. A lot of people like the sabot. For longer ranges they might have an advantage, but really once you have your rifle sighted in and practice, the only real difference is how fast your projectile will get to the target and will it have a rainbow trajectory. I personally like the large conicals, but also shoot a lot of sabots. Either of them are going to work, and make great wound channels.

5. Any other BP rifles out there that you feel I overlooked? Money is not really an issue in purchase but I would like to keep it under 2000 dollars for the complete set up.

Well depending on the laws of your state, whether smokeless powder is legal, there is the Savage ML-10 which is a hard rifle to beat anywhere. There are some of the custom rifles like the Bad Bull, or some of them that really throw some powder down range. There is the Knight Master Hunter Disc Extreme or Elite. There is the Omega made by Thompson Center.

If you want to shoot conicals, load easy, little swabbing of the bore, and just a sweet rifle, there is the White Super 91-II in .504 caliber that will shoot conicals better then probably 99% of all rifles out there. It will shoot sabots just as well. While the company is not in business anymore, they are made like tanks, and there are parts for them out there. Those (like me) that own Whites are kind of prejudice about them. If you ever shoot them, your sold. Also for long range White makes a .451 caliber that shoots a 488 grain conical downrange with extreme accuracy.

A word of warning.. muzzleloaders are habit forming. You start shooting them and soon you will be posting about the Hawkins you just bought or the musket you now have, even the black powder shotguns.. Some guys start out with one rifle and next thing you know, they have walls full of them.

Welcome to the sport and the forum. Its great to have you here..

I would have to agree with both Lee & Underclocked both have some great advice BUT again I AM A KNIGHT GUY Big time , although I do not like the QLA System I have to admit I have been reading some Awsome reports on the Tryumph with BH 209 and some awsome accuracy to boot. So if I was you I would find a place that has both rifles in stock and go handle both to see witch fits you better also you may want to look at a Knight Disc Extreme and the TCpro hunter but I will say eather TC or Knight you can't go wrong ! Bullets to look at would be TC Shock waves - Hornady SST - Barns Bullets - Parker and I shoot a 300gr Sierra .429.5 in my Disc Extreme MH and it is cheep and is super accurate , as far as Powders if you don't like cleaning your gun much look at the new BH 209 but if you can't find it locally it will cost you a pritty penny with the hazzard fees and so on I am dieing to try it but untill I can get it local I will not pay close to $60 for 10oz but if you don't mind cleaning your gun most deffanetly loose 777 is the ticket IMO. and if you want to stock up on 777 at the end of the year Wal-Mart will run it for as low as $10 per 16oz this is when I stock up on my 777 .
As far as your powder load IMO there is no reason to try to shoot more than 100gr to 110gr of powder you will find your best accuracy between 80gr & 110gr of loose powder. I very very seldom shoot more than 100gr .
I would actually pick my gun before I got a scope FOR THIS REASON if you choose a liter gun I would go with a scope with a little more eye relife 3.9" to 4.5" don't need Scope Eye , A heaveyer gun 3" to 4" will do fine.

But what ever you choose Keep us posted on how it does .

Ron

www.cva.com The new Accura is a great lookin rifle. Lifetime warranty, great customer service. Great product. Midsouth Shooters sell the blue/black for $288.

If you go with the knight, You better handle one first to make sure it fits you. The stock for me was to straight forward and trying to use the open sights was very uncomfortable and had to smash my face against the stock to get them lined up.

Test out an assortment of muzzle loaders. Thats whats great about today, Lots to chose from!

Oh my goodness - these guys are good. I don't know what else I can add to what has already been posted. Good luck in you new venture. And as for the questions - keep firing them this way.

I don't have much to add to the previous posts (which by the way contain decades (if not centuries) of wisdom learned the hard way often). However I would like to stress:

1) It is much, much better to use loose powder as opposed to pellets, and it's doubtfull that you'll need more than 120 grains of loose powder for any load you work up.

2) Depending on the design of the ML and what kind of load you are shooting, the recoil can be pretty stout. As already mention, it's more of a "shove" than a sharp kick. The point is, make sure your scope has plenty of eye relief. I had a bruised nose for a week once when shooting a stout load with scope that had limited eye relief.

3) Don't worry about the killing power of a ML with the right load. If you check back over the last year or two on this forum and look for "after-action" reports of us hunting, you'll find that probably more than half of the time we get "boom-flop" performance on game with a well-placed shot.

4) I would add that muzzleloading is more than habit-forming- it can be highly addictive as well.

Enjoy!