sabotloader

(sorry about the length)

Well I finally got time to do some SEMI homework. Headed to the Blues for a camping/4 wheeler trip - but I took along the the White just to shoot some BH-209. I was fairly confident I could shoot it even though I do not have a closed breech. The White as most of you know is a plunger type action.

With this action I have fired T7-2f with great results both in accuracy and velocity - pushing most anything I want to shoot out the barrel very well. I consider the .504 bore on the White and overbore and I do normally use HPH-12's, HPH-.458/50 Orange, and HPH-40/50 cal blue sabots.

When I got everything setup at the cabin - I shot shot Cheddite primers to clear the breech plug - ran a dry patch down to get the debris out. I had already decided I was going to start with 60 grains of BH, because I was somewhat concerned about possibly the blow back pushing the primer back out of the breech plug. I loaded a .452 GD in a 12 sabot and pushed itdown the barrel- it went down normally but I was worred it might be loose for BH-209. The two shots attempted with this load were both slight hangfires and seemed to lack the recoil I was expecting and both impacts were very low on the target. No problem or hint of primer blow back.

Next loaded two shots of 90 grains of BH-209 and 300 grain GD's - that with the bigger bearing surface I might get a tighter seal with the HPH-12's - no so! the barrel was so clean - these bullets went down easier than the 205's. Shot bothloads and again did not feel like a very powerful load. No sign of primerblowback + a very long hangfire...

Since I was not seeing any primer blowback I moved to 100 grains and change projectile and sabots. I loaded a.458/300 grain Hornady HP and a MMP .458/50 cal Orange sabot. I knew it was going to be a problem as it loaded to easy--- short hangfire and not much recoil - found the sabot at the base of the target - 50 yards down range.

Next I decided to try a .458 in a HPH-24 sabot. It was the tightest coombination that I loaded so far. That was more exciting - immediate boom and substantial recoil...

Next 100 grains of BH - .458/300 grain Hornady and a HPH 12 sabot. This sabot and bullet loaded into the White bore with what I thought was the right pressure - it was tight but not so tight I stuggled to get it down the bore. Everything went off just like thought it should - impact was in the area that I thought it might be and recoil was what I really expected. I really thought I had it figured out... loaded up the second shot - exactly the same.... Impact and recoil felt the same but this time the primer was pushed back out of the breech plug - the hammer had the empty battery cup jammed crooked on the lip of the breech plug... the primer was gone and not to be found but laying in the bottom of the reciever was a small part. I pulled he hammer back - the battery cup dropped to the floor of the receiver. I pick it out an looked at it - it really did not look bad at all, but the other small piece on the floor of the receiver really concerned me. Thought I had broke something. Pick out the small part and I am sure it was the "anvil" from the primer. I then pulled the breech plug - thinking I might have broken that... but it wasstill all intact. I am sure it was the anvil - so at that point I made the decision no more BH-209 in the White and if it will not work in the White it will not work safely in the Remingtons either.I did not even try the 25ACP breech plug conversion I had made for the White.

As everyone has reported the powder is clean, there is no doubt about that. But with that I will add that it is definitea progressive burning powder and it certainly smells smokeless to me before and after the shot.
Here is a picture of the White action after the shooting session. That is the cleanest it has ever been that many shots with 209 ignition.



Here is the target - nothing to brag about but it gives you the idea....

Semisane

Good report Sabotloader. I've enjoyed reading the BH reports. So far, I just have no desire to try it. Maybe one day.

cayugad

At least I know there is no reason for me to get any of it. The only closed breech design rifle I have is my Disc. All the rest are the open breech. But all my Whites need is some Swiss, or some Triple Se7en 3f even some Pyrodex P and a little extra cleaning time.

Good report there Sabotloader... thanks

Underclocked

Thanks for trying that test, Mike. If you aren't happy with it in a White - I'm not even going to try it.

It would not surprise me so terribly much to see Hodgdon counter with a superior powder that will actually function properly in most any muzzleloader. Then, I think, we might truly have the best damned powder in muzzleloading. Maybe Western Powder should qualify that claim with "if you can get it to fire reliably and safely."

burntmuch

Thanks for the report sabotloader. Not every component works for every gun. all info is good . Im sure you saved a few ML shooters a couple bucks . The bh209 is a bit pricey to find out it doesnt work for ya. Myself ,I just bought my second bottle[:@]

corey012778

great report sabotloader. even though I do have 45cal win. apex (bought from FG ) coming in anyday now, I am not thinking of getting the stuff.

alleyyooper

Since I only have the one Remington with 209 it wouldn't work for me even if I were rich enough and lazy enough to buy it.

Al

lemoyne

Good report, I also believe that it is progressive burning powder, due to that fact I wont try it in an open breach especally in loads under 90 gr, I would be afraid of getting a detonation. Lee

sabotloader

UC

At this point I will not return to BH-209 in the White. I really would have liked it to be an alternative, an alternative because of price only, but there a couple of things that I am not happy with. The possibility of the the primer flying apart in an open breech is not to exciting and the fact that the powder seems to be so sensitive to the pressure that the bullet is loaded with. Progressive powders like BH require a constant pressure to continue burning at a given rate. I worry about bore diameters, sabot diameters, even bullet diameters all being consistentant and constant. Any changes in any of those diameters will change the dynamics of how BH-209 burns - hence accurracy will vary also. Granted I was shooting a White with a large bore - had I chosen to shoot the Omega or the Knight with a tighter bore some of the diameter problems may have been eliminated.

I think Western gave us the parameters that they beleived that their powder would function consistently in, I beleive we as shooters have tried to adjust the parameters to fit what we want it to do. So I guess I am saying that in Western's or General Dynamics minds if you shot the powder in a closed breech, such as the Omega-Encore with all the componets fitting correctly all the time you would have an excellent powder. But I think about some of the Sanish made extruded barrels that are not always equal in bore diameter top to bottom - that might lead to an accuracy problem in itself.

Some of my problem go right back to what Doc White has always said when ot comes to the plunger style assembly. It is not meant to lock or hold the primer in place during the combustion of the powder. If the power curve is long it may drive back-pressure back out the breech plug, creating pieces of a second projectile going in the wrong direction. That is why he would not agree to a 25ACP for a Model 97 - and I treid several times to convince hime. With BP and the subs the power curve is pretty quick your projectile can even loose speed in the barrel.

I still want to try the BH in my Omega and even in the Knight Extreme. The Extreme is also a plunger type rifle but it has a couple of options that would reduce the blowback possibilities greatly. Several people on MM are shooting the Knight Extremes and Elites with very good results. At this point, for myself only, the ideal of the closed breech is the safest way to go.

Question??? on the KP1 and KRB or any of the Knights- does the block that holds the primer in place - does it lock in place? If it does not - seems like that puts thing awful close to your face?

Underclocked

KP1 locks it in place just as an Encore would.The KRB allows a bit of flex as the "block" is not really locked in position. The primer seating in a KRB is also probably not as fully engaged as it perhaps should be. There may be other, less obvious, issues regrading use of BH209 in a KRB. The "domed" Knight plug also seems to have issues with BH209.

The list of rifles the powder WILL function reliably in seems to be shrinking rather than growing. Lead conical shooters apparently need not apply.