Have you considered ............
 

I see lots of questions posted in here like "Have I got enough gun , I can only shoot a 300grn bangwhamer uber slug with 80 grs of FFG in my 45 whats it ".
It makes me nuts some times . The 45-70 has slain man and beast in every field with a lil sissy 350-500 grn bullet soundering allong at a measly 1800fps (only in the last 60-70yrs hopped up to a blistering 2000-2200fps) propelled by less in some cases alot less than 70grs of FFG . And that hot rod the 45 Colts launches a 250 at 850fps with a paltry 37grs and is considered a 50+ yrd deer slayer.
Now I know that a cartrige is "cheating a little" but aren't all these 209 inlines a closed sealed breach?
I just saw a new .45 magnum ,the builder escapes me ,that is rated for 3 50 grn pellets and a 250grn bullet . The 45-110-500 aka "the Quigley gun" matches the 458 Win mag . The above load would be about a 45-150-250 and that pushes the realm of the 460 Weatherby .
Just seems to me that the purety of the front stuffer is lost at some point and/or we've lost sight of just how little it takes to "cleanly and humanly harvest" an animal we intend to eat .

RE: Have you considered ............
 

i agree, its sad to find that people use these 3 pellets loads just because its stamped onto their barrel. In my .45 i use 80 grains powder with a 225 grain powerbelt. I do not worry about this FPS stuff. All i want is a bullet that shoots flat and is going to perform and put the game down quickly.

If you were to ask a new muzzleloading hunter which load would he would rather use for 100 yard shooting to drop game fast and gave him these two options:
250 grain sabot over 150 grain pellets Or
405 grain conical over 70 grains powder.
Ask the guy which is going to have better Take down energy on game, He'd more than likely tell you the 250 grain because it has a lot more powder behind the bullet :D

I dont do inlines anymore, going back to patched roundball.

RE: Have you considered ............
 

It is interesting to see just how effective the "old" loads are. This past weekend I was helping my son do some bullet testing for a science fair project that involves lead bullets. I will be posting some of the results as soon as he completes compiling the data. Let me tell you, some of the penetration results were impressive.

RE: Have you considered ............
 

Agreed. Which is why all my MLs are sidelocks.

RE: Have you considered ............
 

When I was a kid, most folks considered a .357 handgun plenty for deer. Then, after a few magazine writers got going, the .357 was marginal and only the .44 mag was really enough. Some years later, along came the .454 Casull and suddenly the .44 mag was marginal! I guess now that they've got that .50 whatzit I've heard about, even the .454 is garbage now. I wouldn't know. I quit reading gun mags when I saw that bit about the .44 being marginal.

Someone once named the affliction "magnumitis" and it's taken over the entire hunting world. Cartridge, muzzleloading... even archery, fer cryin' out loud!

I'm sticking with PRB's in front of modest powder charges. That always worked fine for me before. I'm sure it'll still work fine today. I don't much worry about what other folks have got stuffed down the bore of their guns. None of my business. ;)

RE: Have you considered ............
 

David, I remember talking to you about this project. So now he is doing the experiment, which is the shooting. I look forward to hearing what he did. Chap Gleason

RE: Have you considered ............
 

Haven't killed all that many deer with a muzzleloader. Maybe 10 or 12 total. They all were shot at under 100 yards (some much under) with bullets ranging from 250 to 300 grains pushed by 80 to 100 grains of powder. All shots have been in the "boiler room" and all but one dropped in it's tracks! The one that ran was already running from other hunters and made the mistake of stopping to look back. It went about 30 yards after the shot.
I have also shot a few deer with a .45 Colt pistol (Ruger - and I had hot reloads with 250grcast bullets in it) and none of them went more than a few steps.
I agree that a big heavy bullet lumbering along at slow to medium velocity is all it takes - IF you put it in the right place!
BTW - One of those deer with the .45 revolver was running and I led it too far. [:o]The bullet hit it's neck, broke the spine, and the buck's head dropped and the antlers hit the ground causing it to do a complete flip. It never moved again! Not a shot I'm proud of, but the results were still good with that big heavy bullet.

RE: Have you considered ............
 

On the other hand, the modern inlineand various expanded loadinghas also done wonders at bringing new folks into muzzleloading that otherwise would likely never have. Which some folks also see as a terrible thing. For me more folks in the sport is a better thing versus fewer.

Forthose of us that shoot both modern and traditional ML's and loads,they both offer a nice contrast and broadens the environment and hunting experienceswith muzzleloading weapons. I love going from a Scoped Encore on one day to a Flintlock the next and a percussion of some flavor (inline orsidelock)the day after that.

Unfortunately for the sidelock, there are very few production models available anymore. Which is a shame.

As for the modern loads and ML's, 99% of all of that is really marketing fluff. Approaches and campaigns designed to do one thing = sell more product. Modern ML's are no different than any other product with a vast marketing engine behind it.

The question is do you buy theproduct itselfor the marketing fluff?

I think we all fall subject to the marketing-speak at some point or another eventually. Some more so than others.

Tahquamenon

RE: Have you considered ............
 

The problem you find is many people who are uninformed fall in to the hype of muzzleloaders and their "game taking" ability. They are reading magazines and watching TV hunting shows where these paid "experts" are bragging about the need for their 150 grain load and their sponsors bullet, their other sponsors rifle, and their other sponsors optics. Then we even have them selling us powder. Buy this powder because my names on it. It is the best out there.

Before all these magnum capable rifles were around. Most of us shot from 70-100 grains of powder. And we still hunted and took the same animals they are taking today with their 150 grain charges. Now I am not saying that the magnum muzzleloader does not have its place. It does. If I were hunting large game at long distances then the stronger the powder charge the rifle shoots, could be a real advantage. Even light game at extreme distance, the stronger charges might be a plus. But is that to say a skilled shooter could not do the same with a 100 grains charge? For what most people hunt and the distances we shoot at, 75-110 grains of powder is more then enough. Sabotloader proved that this elk season with his 300 grain Nosler and110 grain charge, at I believe 176 yards approximately.

When our forefathers were wandering this land shooting game to stay alive, they often times used a simple roundball and a very light powder charge. Why? Powder was hard to come by. So was lead in some cases. They really had to watch what supplies they shot. They were more into getting close to their game and making their shot count.

Although let me say this.. hunt with what gives you the most confidence in yourself and your rifle.

RE: Have you considered ............
 

I bought my first flintlock in the mid 70s...A .45 caliber...I used this gun for about 15 years and killed around 25 deer with...My powder charge was 70grs of Goex FFF...I tested this load by putting up a 2x4 at 75 yards and the ball passed through...A .440 ball weighs 128grs...At 60-70 yards it would pass through shoulder blades, the spine and end up under the hide on the off side...

In 1990 I made a .54 caliber flintlock, a .530 ball weighs 224grs...My initial loads were anywhere from 100-120grs...About 5 years ago I went to 80grs of Goex FFF...This load kills as good as the heavier loads...The advantage of a .54 ball over a .45 is that on lung shots I get more pass throughs (maybe 75% of the time)...Frankly, I can't see any difference as to how far the deer run with a lung shot...I just have a better blood trail...

I bought a Knight Disc about 6 years ago, initially I used 2-50gr pellets and a 300gr Barnes MZ...I always got a pass through...About 3 years ago, I switched to 90grs FFF and a 250 Shockwave...In my testing the Shockwave shot flatter than the 300 Barnes, with less powder and less recoil...I have killed deer out to 143 yards with this loading and almost always get a pass through...BUT...In my estimation, they actually run a little further on a lung shot than with the .54...I use this when hunting over fields in the evenings and since I'm 52, the Leupold sure does help...

I did shoot 150grs with the 300 Barnes...ONCE!!!

After I picked up my hat, I decided not to do that again...My hunting buddy is still laughing about watching me do that...:D

80-90grs is plenty...If you are looking at a long range loading, I can see going up to 110-120, my rifle just doesn't group well (the inline) with that much powder...You will see more advantage to proper bullet selection for longer ranges vs just increasing the powder charge...You will also reach a point with sabots and patches that they are so damaged that accuracy goes down the tubes...

RE: Have you considered ............
 

I am going to defend the newbie here. Its all in how muzzleloaders are marketed today. I started this time last year with my muzzleloader. If it were not for this forum and a few others, I would be shooting an sst and 150g of powder because thats what I was told would work.

Being the anile person I am I did my research, subsequently absorbing all the info I could from you guys.

Unfortunately, thats not the real world for a lot of guys. They buy, they shoot and thats it. There is very little information on the "how to" of muzzleloading. Here in my area of Indiana, the gun clubs are few and far between and most can not give too much advise on muzzleloaders.

Forums like this are a true blessing....pass it on!

RE: Have you considered ............
 

If the load shoots good for you, chances are it will kill a deer. In my sidelock, 90gr RS & a 385gr Great Plains works good.In my Omega I like a 250gr Shockwave, and most recently a 240gr Cheap Shot under a130gr charge. Although my sidelock isn't for shots much over 100yds, when I take my Omega out I want something that will shoot flat to 200yds for the open-country muleysof western Nebraska. A heavy charge and an aerodynamic bullet means less drop at extended ranges. More forgiveness for range estimation and holdover. That's not something to worry about with open sights, you won't be shooting that far anyways.

RE: Have you considered ............
 

.458 Win Mag???
Not many BP loads in that realm I don't think. Could be wrong here, but....






Add to Wishlist
Remove Item

Cartridge
458 Win Mag

Bullet Wt. Grs.
500

Bullet Type
Nosler Partition

CXP Guide No.
Game Guide 3 Large Heavy Game

Barrel Length (in)
-

Velocity in Feet Per Second (fps)

Muzzle
2240

100
2000

200
1776

300
1572

400
1390

500
1237

Energy in Foot Pounds (ft-lbs.)

Muzzle
5570

100
4440

200
3503

300
2742

400
2145

500
1699

RE: Have you considered ............
 

its always fun to try something new, but i have yet to go where i went with my first ml kill with a 45cal cva longrifle that i made from a kit, loaded with a patched round ball. i was the only kid on the block to even own a ml. that was 27 years ago and from that time i have tried lots of other sidelocks and inlines, but never had that feeling with the new stuff as with that old cva. i curse these new guns but they sure shoot good. i'm more than sure the new ml hunter of today feels the same way i did back then even if he's shooting some sabot rounds with a 150gr of pellets out of a $1000. or higher inline with a $800 scope. you know that little spike hit the ground stone dead. the only way i could hit the target was to aim 4inches high and alittle to the left.

RE: Have you considered ............
 

"The 45-70 has slain man and beast in every field with a lil sissy 350-500 grn bullet soundering allong at a measly 1800fps"

Believe that the original military load was a 405 grain bullet and 70 grains of BP for about 1,400 fps. I do understand what you are saying here.For a few years i hunted with 130-150 grains of Pyrodex. Found out that such heavy loads arenotnecessary. I shoot onlya fewloads in myinlines. Do not really care what the velocity of those bullets are. They kill deer and hogs as if struck by a bolt from above and that is all that matters to me.

RE: Have you considered ............
 

When I got my inline the first thing I did was go out and shoot the recommended load of 150 grs of Pyrodex and a 250 grain bullet. Wow what a pounding...then I when and bought several types of powder but wanted to stay with the 250 grain bullet. I started testing out different loads from 90 grains back up to 150 grains in both loose and pellets and truly in the end what shot best was the 3x50 Pyrodex pellets, T/C 250 grain shockwave bullet and I use the VariFlame primer system. If I would have been able to get the same POI with less powder I would have been all over that, but in the end I went with what worked best.

There are those that no matter what you tell them they will claim your doing it wrong by their book and thats just life I guess. However when you put all the variable to the test in the end it will always be what works best for you and that might just not work so well for the other 99.99999% of the other shooters. That doesn't mean theyare stupid and buying into the Magnum BS...in the end I think we are all on here to lend some advice and try to help out our fellow shooters. It serves no ones best interest to belittle everyone who has a different view on things. Just my .02 cents worth...

RE: Have you considered ............
 

I'm under guned shooting 85gr. max in my 50 cals and 100gr in my 54. I think I should morgauge the farm and buy one of those ultmants and shoot 4 pellets. Shoot most of my shots are 100 yards or less. I need one of those kill it and grill it on the spot rifles.

:Dnot really

:)Al

RE: Have you considered ............
 

Huntaway,
actually the 45-110 matches the 458 out to 300yrds differant bullet weights,would have to look it up again in my Lyman 48th edition .

It is nice to see there is some logic left in the world .

Thanks for the like minded insights .

Maybe it is just that I'm just a little too rooted in the past . I shoot a hawken with patched balls, a 2 3/4 12ga (plastic cases), and a lowly '06 fed with cup and cores and 4831 , and a plain jane Bear with cedar shafts and natural fletches .