Realistic Range
 

I have posted some questions in hopesof making an informed ML purchase and everyone on here has been of tremdous help in their replys and reading posts from the past. I had narrowed the gun down to 2 and found a post from early Dec. that has made up my mind. I don't want to reveal my choice so it will not sway any comments on my next question.

Of the current in lines avaiable under these circumstances what is a realistic distance thatcan be acheived out of .50 cal 80-120 gr powder. I have no experiance on bullets, or powder for that matter I'm just going from previous posts.

1 Let's say I justhappen to have bench with rest, no wind, ideal temp and humidity.
2 Scope is sorta like the omega in thatit has multiple elevation marks that match the load. (no having to guess on hold over)
3 I am steady as a rock and just a plain old good shot.

How far can I reach out and touch a deer under these IDEAL CONDITIONS that will never happen.

Several posts make it clear that 100-150 yds is quite common. I know that at some point the bullet drop will exceed the scopes vertical field of view and/or not have enough energy to do the job.

JUST TO BE CLEAR before anyone jumps me I am not advocating taking shots beyound the shooter skill or equipment. I am just curious as to what the guns are capable of under right conditions and what shooter have done or seen done.

RE: Realistic Range
 

If you're a good shot, well practiced, and with the right powder charge of say 120 grains and a good aerodynamic projectile.. 200+ yards are possible. I am also not advocating such distances, but it could be done. It will all depend on what your practice dictates. If you can place your shots at 200 yards or even 250 yards.. the rifle has the power to make a kill at some hard to believe distances. You might need some tracking skills as it will not drop in its tracks.. but the rifle has the power.

RE: Realistic Range
 

At that kind of powder charges kills can be made to 200yds BUT you would have to bee a seasond shooter and know your gun well.

RE: Realistic Range
 

I will say 225 yards with a 120gr charge. You'll have about a foot of drop with a 250gr shockwavebullet when sighted in 2.5" high at 100yds, and about 950ft/lbs energy. I know for a fact that shockwaves work well around 200 yards with such a charge.I don't know how slow that modern jacketed bullet will open up, which would be the real decisive factor for a precision shooter. If it could still perform at 1100fps I'd say 300 yards...about 700ft/lbs energy but the big bullet could easily make the target dead, fast.

RE: Realistic Range
 

Well with my favorite load a 200gr Shock Wave and 150 gr RS which shoots the best groups I have ever gotten out of a muzzleloader [thats a 50 cal sabot and a 40 cal bullet with a BC of .269 and SD of 179] I can hit the clanger thats supposed to be about life sized for the kill area on a deer almost every time according to my range finder its between 235 and 240 yds, but I wont even try if there is a breeze. Lee

RE: Realistic Range
 

Phathead

Under those "perfect" conditions and with a any of my scoped inlines and with the right bullet in the barrel... 200 yards is not a problem...

With a sidehammer and open sights 150 give or take would be my max...

RE: Realistic Range
 

A Nosler Partition 300g with a balistic Coeffiecient of .199 pushed out of the barrel at 2000 FPS, sighted at 150 yards (3" high at 100 yards) gives the following ballistics, making a 200 yard shot quite doablewith the conditions you mentioned. MPBR is 175 yards. Chap Gleason

RE: Realistic Range
 

I think the decimal in those ft-lbs needs to be moved a space:D

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Yep, your right, didn't even look at that. Was looking at bullet drop. Thanks Chap

RE: Realistic Range
 

anything over 100 yds and i got to have a little help from up above, anything closer than 20 yards has a good chance of getting away. a good rifle will hold true out to a 120 yds with a small charge after that it drops fast. a hot charge and a matched load with a scope (or peep site)set for the drop will kill alot further than most of us can imagine. in the end it don't realy matter what you got in yours hands but what your hands can do with the rifle.

RE: Realistic Range
 

Yep, if you sight in 3" high at 100 yards, most bullets are good to 175 yards, after that they drop off the table.If you know your bullet and know your gun you can get to 200, but only if you know both of those things. With open sights I would agree with you on the 120 max. Most sights cover up the deer at 100 yards and beyond. Chap Gleason

RE: Realistic Range
 

If all the stars aligned and everything was perfect. There is still plenty of energy at 300 yds to do a deer with chapmans load.
However, 300 yd is a longgggggggggg ways out there for a bullet that takes better than 1/2a second to get there.

P.S. That is my moose load.;)

RE: Realistic Range
 

There's obviously a lot of variables that can affect this. A lot of it boils down to - What is an ethical shot?

Civil War snipers often made kills with .45 cal Whitworths or even Springfield muzzleloaders at 800 - 1000 yards. So a muzzleloader can certainly kill a deer at extreme ranges, but that doesn't make it ethical to shoot that far. Those snipers also missed and wounded soldiers probably far more often than they hit at those extreme ranges.

I would say that a modern muzzleloader with a scope in the hands of a good shot (another important factor) will often have an effective, ethical range of 150 - 200 yards. My ML is sighted in to be dead-on at 100 yards, and drops about 5 inches at 150. I would take a shot out to 150, but would prefer 100 yards or closer. I know of some who can routinely make hits at 200, and would never say anything bad about someone who shoots that far, but practices at that range and knows what their gun will do.

Past 200 yards, there aren't many loads that will retain enough energy and trajectory to make ethical shots, in my opinion.

RE: Realistic Range
 

"How far can I reach out and touch a deer under these IDEAL CONDITIONS that will never happen."

The problem with long-range shooting with a black powder weapon is not accuracy, but knowing the trajectory intimately and being able to estimate ranges precisely - within +- 20 yards or less.

If you have a rangefinder, and have time to use it, the problem gets simplified some, but you still must zero your rifle in at a realistic distance, and then shoot it a lot at various distances to find out exactly how high/low your bullet is going to strike at that range. This shooting has to be done with your powder and bullet combination. Guessing and printed charts will just not do it!

RE: Realistic Range
 

With the right load, stout powder charge that still is accurate, lots of practice and I would say 10-14x optics 200-300 yards would be possible. Perhaps longer.

A friend of mine is shooting an Encore .50, topped with a Leupold VX-III 4.5-14x50mm setup with the ballistic reticle and his load iswith 125gr 777 2FG and a Hornady SST 250gr projectile. His max range is 300 yards and he has effectively and routinely harvested deer at 200 to 300 yards. He is sighted zero at 200 yards and practices a great deal shooting at these ranges. Hisaverage shot opportunityis really 200 yards with the longest at 300as he is hunting 10 acres of woods that is across an open corn field. The deer are almost never standing around closer or if they are they are already running at top speed so a shot is not possible. He also carries in his blind, the exact same setup only with a 3x-9x VXII for everything under say 150 yards, which is a rare occasion. He has only harvestedtwo deer in the past four years under 150 yards.

What you will find if you routinely wish to shoot atextended rangesis you need either to sight in at around 200-250 yards or have a quality drop compensating reticle scope and higher maginification and a bunch of regular shooting practicein my view.

I have targeted out to 300 yards with a couple of my inlines (from my friend's blind)with actually pretty good accuracy from a bench, but I only have 9x optics so really it's very difficult for meto shoot with any real precision.

M2C

RE: Realistic Range
 

I don't think youwould need 10-14x optics for a 2-300yd shot
I used to carry a 5x on one of my centerfires and made some pretty long shots with it...as far as seeing the target it was enough.

RE: Realistic Range
 

I think 300 is way beyond most inline MLer on this board. A Savage shooting Smokeless with a 2700 fps and Barnes Origonal with a Crushed Rib sabot took this doe at 293 yards:

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thre ad=1198274725

so it is possible, IF YOU KNOW YOUR GUN, YOUR LOAD, YOU PRACTICE to 300 and YOUR an excellent marksman. Some can shoot up to 150 with no problems, with their 100 yard sighed in guns. Anything over 150 is a lot of practice and knowledge of bullet, load and excellent conditions. I am NOT recommending people shoot that far, I am only pointing out that I have seen evidence of folks shooting that far and had excellent results AGAIN with the right load. Chap

RE: Realistic Range
 

Get closer!

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Smokeless muzzleloader VS Black Powder muzzleloader is an entire different ball game.

RE: Realistic Range
 

Amen! Depends on lots of different variables among gun & shooter.

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2700fps is insane, wish I could safely get that out of my Omega...250-300yds would be easy :D
I'm shooting right around 2000fps.

RE: Realistic Range
 

Just as eldeguello said.

RE: Realistic Range
 

The wind is going to be a problem especialy in the winter, it is very seldom calm here in Michigan. I shoot 175gr dead center. 2200 fps. I think a 10 mph crosswind moves the bullet 6". Ithinkideal conditions are the key to max range.

RE: Realistic Range
 

Here's an interesting article.

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/EditorsView2.html

RE: Realistic Range
 

Great article, thanks. Chap

RE: Realistic Range
 

Makes ya think!

RE: Realistic Range
 

Realistic 150yards, as perfect conditons rarily happen in the field. However if a perfect condition and situation does present itself in the field 200 "ish" is with in my capabilities with a scoped inline.

200 +is doable but certainly not realistic for all Mler's. Current bullet choices are a limiting factor, BC's are poor and don't lend themselves that well for extended range. If you go lighter for a higher BC you lose in drift....+ ='s -. For me adjusting/learning/predicting drift is much tougher then drop. PersonallyI prefer slower and more drop.

RE: Realistic Range
 

Me too, that is why I like the 300g, more down range energy and they shoot thru. I agree 150 is realistic for most everyone. 200 is possible, and further is just a long long way. Chap Gleason

RE: Realistic Range
 

I would not hesitate to take a shot at 250 yards with my.50 cal. Encore, loaded with 150 grains 777, 240 grain, .44cal Hornady. In two years with it however, there was never a need. I'm confident, under the right conditions, I can make that shot.

There is no question the gun is capable of making that shot. I'm not going to go into the Balllistics/trajectory tables for that gunw/that load because you would say I was full of S#$T, but those of you with the resources, look it up. It is an awesome weapon!

Bottom line, and someone just mentioned it a few posts ago, GET CLOSER!!

RE: Realistic Range
 

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f32/338-yards-25320/

Knowing your gun and load can get you out quite a ways, also interesting to note that he was still getting pass thru's at those ranges with the 200gr. SW.

RE: Realistic Range
 

In my mind the biggest problem with long shots from a muzzleloader (200+)is not the ability of the bullet to kill but the potential for the target to move. Between the concentration required to make shots at long range, the delay in trigger pull, the relatively slow speed of a MZ bullet it is easy for too much timeto elapse between the brain's decision to fire and the bullet's arrival on target. One step forward by the animal, even a weight shift, and a deer sized animalcan move 6-12 inches. To me, that is the ethical dilemna.

RE: Realistic Range
 

Agree.

RE: Realistic Range
 

That was me. There's a lot that goes into dependably making those shots. It starts an accurate gun and an accurate load. My gun is bedded and pillared. 200SW and 110gr 777 isn't the most powerful load out there, but it is best balance of flat shooting and accuracy in my gun so that's what I use.

I'm actually not a big fan of the BDC reticles and such. You give up a lot of precision when you start holding over or depending on reticle marks that are not specifically set for you gun. And if the deer is 270 yds, exactly where between marks do you hold? That's why I shoot a tactical-style scope so I can always go the exact number of clicks for the range and hold DEAD ON to where I want the bullet to go. That's as precise as it gets.

You should only need roughly 2X for every 100 yds. I have a 3.5-10X on my gun and the deer was plenty big at 338 yds on 10X.

You need to practice until everything is second nature. I have a drop chart taped to my gun but in all the shooting I did that day, 4 deer in 20 minutes, I never once thought to look at it. The drops and wind were second nature after all the practice.

The position is also important, I only shoot over 100 yds if I'm on a bipod and only over 150 yds if I'm prone on the bipod.

The shooter has to have the skills and trigger control to reliably take those shots too. I shot competitively in college and so by putting reasonably light pulls on my triggers I have no problem making good shots when I need to.

As for time-of-flight, a deer can ALWAYS move faster than you can predict. The last deer I made a bad shot on, which has been about 7 years, was a buck at only 40 yds. The sight picture looked good when the gun went off, but somehow he managed to spin 90 degrees and take the bullet in the back leg before the round got there, leading to a long tracking job. I'm much pickier about longer shots, the deer can't be nervous or ready to move. But the possibility is there at any range, they are not static targets.

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i keep most of my shots under 80 yards where i hunt its due to the area. i use open sights and to date every deer i shot at i recovred with my sidelocks

RE: Realistic Range
 

The first shot from a MZ is basically the same as a 45-70 load if you load your rifle properly. And you know how far the Buffalo hunter's shot the 45-70!!

The problem is not the capability of the rifle. It is the ethics of the hunter, and the shooting ability of the hunter. Long range hunting is alot of fun, but you have to put in your trigger time at the range.

Ethics comes in to play when you consider time of flight. Remember when you shoot a bullet around 1600-2000 fps-the sound get's there way before the bullet gets there. when I shoot my 45-70 at chunk rock at 400 yards, it is amazing how long it takes to hear the bullet impact the rock. I can lift my head off the stock, take a breath, then watch the smoke come off the rock. Tom.