River Rat

Alright I am really puzzled why I can't get good groups and other people just swear by it. I have used 777 for the past few years and have had problems with a lot of different things. First I thought it was the gun so in the past 4 years I have owned 4 different ML. Then I thought maybe it was the scope so I have owned 3 different scopes currently on my 4th. Then I thought it might be the rings on the scope on my 4 set. Now I am beginning to think it might be the powder. I can get good groups at 50 and 100 yards but then when I go to 150 yards I start to get fliers. I have shot ff 777 and fff 777 with not much difference. I started to clean between shots still nothing. Now I am going to try Goex powder and feel that it might not be enough for the down range energy I am looking for. I have fff Goex and haven't had a chance to shoot it because it won't stop raining. I am just frustrated because I know I can shoot just that this isn't working out the way I want it too. Oh by the way I just finished free floating my ML the other day so maybe that might help also. I guess I needed to vent a little but I wish I could just get the 777 to work like a lot of other people have and not have to worry about the energy now. I think if I can push around 120 grains of powder i should be fine however I won't know till I try I guess. Sorry for the venting just needed to get that out.

River Rat

yeoman

River Rat - any chance you've gotten caught up in the "more is better" thing? More powder in this case? 120grains of777 is the equivalent of around 130-140 of other alternatives. That's way more than "needed" at 150 and may be detrimental to accuracy. What ML are you currently shooting? What bullets have you tried? Any chance you'd be willing to go back and start at 80 grains and shoot enough rounds of a given bullet to find the optimal charge for just one of those 4 muzzleloaders at 100 yds? Then, you'd be able to sell me one of the others so you don't feel so bad about having parted with all that cash.

River Rat

Your right about the amount of powder just that i want to shoot around 200 yards and feel that if I get a little week on my charge I won't have enough energy. I have been shooting around 90 grains of fff 777 so figured if I shot around 110 to 120 grains of Goex Pinnancle FFF i would be fine then.

I am shooting a Winchester Apex with a 250 grain Hornady SST. Didn't like the Barnes 250 TMZ and don't like the Power Belt. I have been looking at a couple other bullets just try to find something that is easy to get.

I have sold the other ML but still have the New England Huntsman like the way it shoots just wanted to have it for a brush gun and the Apex for the longer shots. Otherwise I might take you up on the offer.

River Rat

cayugad

200 yards is a long way in anyones book. Even 150 yards. I know guys that can't do it with a centerfire rifle. I am not doubting your ability but remember, we actually hand load each charge we make. A little off on anything or any part of the load, and you can get a flier. The longer the distance and the more apparent the fliers become.

I was shooting Shockwaves one day at 150 yards at a White paper dinner plate. What are they 9" and once I learned where to hold in the scope, I was plugging that dinner plate away. I was impressed. I was also only shooting 100 or 110grains of Triple Se7en 2f at the time. Would I shoot a deer at that distance with that same load? In a heart beat if it was standing the way I wanted and everything was how I felt comfortable.

Also 100 grains - 120 grains is a strong charge of loose powder. I would think 100 grains and the right bullet would still be a 200 yard bullet. Now I never shot that far, so this is speculation on my part. But the point is, if the bullet is of good design, and your pushing it with 100 grains of powder, while the trajectory might be a little more rainbow, you practice and learn that rainbow. When you do shoot and hit, that bullet will still enter, take out the vital organs,and probably pass through if the design of the bullet is good and it hits no major bone stoppers in there.

Also stop beating yourself up. I have read your posts and you sound like someone who knows his stuff and really does pay attention to what he is doing on the range. Experiment with bullets, powder, etc, and practice. That longer distance will come to you. You're a determined shooter, and they are hard to stop... Good luck.

bronko22000

I totally agree with Cayugad. That's a far piece for a ML. I don't think I've ever shot a deer with my ML over 60 yds. Of course the area where I hunt 100 yds, even 75 yds is a long shot because of the terrain and cover. But I shoot at the range to group about 2" high at 50 yds. Then I shoot at 100 to see where my load prints for that "just in case" shot.

dmurphy317

River Rat,

Don't sell the 100gr load with the 250SST short. I use the 250 Shockwave (same bullet) over 100gr of 777 in a couple of my rifles including my son's Apex and get good accuracy out of it. I have gotten several sub 4" and a couple of sub 3" groups at 200 yards with it and would not hesitate a 200 yard shot on a deer that's broadside. Here is a chart for that load in the Apex.

Name: .45 Cal, TC Shockwave, 250 grn
Ballistic Coeff: 0.210
Bullet Weight: 250
Velocity: 1780
Target Distance: 135
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 70
Altitude: 500
Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect
0 yds -1.50 in 1780 fps 1759 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in -0.00 in
25 yds 0.62 in 1701 fps 1606 fpe 0.044 sec 0.36 in -0.51 in 0.24 in
50 yds 1.98 in 1624 fps 1464 fpe 0.089 sec 1.48 in -0.22 in 0.82 in
75 yds 2.53 in 1550 fps 1333 fpe 0.136 sec 3.41 in 0.30 in 1.69 in
100 yds 2.19 in 1479 fps 1214 fpe 0.185 sec 6.23 in 1.07 in 2.94 in
125 yds 0.85 in 1412 fps 1106 fpe 0.237 sec 10.05 in 2.13 in 4.64 in
150 yds -1.62 in 1349 fps 1011 fpe 0.292 sec 15.00 in 3.53 in 6.83 in
175 yds -5.27 in 1291 fps 925 fpe 0.349 sec 21.13 in 5.31 in 9.44 in
200 yds -10.18 in 1237 fps 849 fpe 0.408 sec 28.53 in 7.48 in 12.44 in
225 yds -16.56 in 1188 fps 783 fpe 0.470 sec 37.38 in 10.12 in 15.93 in

The energy is still above 800fp at 200 yards and the drop is reasonable and easily adjusted for. This chart is set up for a 5" point blank range which gives you point and shoot to a little over 150 yards. Give it a try.

River Rat

Thanks for the boost in confidence I appreciate it. I do agree that the 200 yard shot is a difficult one with a ML and I have accomplished it once. I ended up having problems with the scope and after that I managed to make it threw the season with a cheaper ML scope. I come from the military and was lucky enough to have a First Sgt who was a sniper for the Army before he became my First Sgt. He showed our company a lot during his service with our unit and I shot for our Units shooting team for the Governers Ten. We did alright and the best part was how much I learned about our weapons. I try to lap that over to ML and start to get frustrated because I know that I can shoot (at least a little). Since then I am no longer in service and yet a lot of my training has helped me with shooting along with other areas.

I don't necessary believe that I need to shoot 120 grains of powder my preferred amount is 85 to 90 grains way more accurate for the way I shoot. However I was going to switch to Goex instead of 777 and guess I thought that the Goex wouldn't shoot as hot as 777 therefore needing the extra push. Just guess I should remember when I first started and had the same problems. Things were easy after I found the perfect load for my first ML and since I switch I am back on the experimenting road till I find that perfect load.

I will continue to watch everyones comments and advice to up my skills so that I can achieve what I perfer as my best load.

Thanks again for the encouragement. I really enjoy reading what people have to say on this forum and it has really helped a lot.

River Rat

River Rat

Thanks Dmurphy, that is great information.

River Rat

dmurphy317

If you go with the Goex FFF you should be getting similar velocity to 777 FF based on some testing I did a while back. I was using Pyro P but the goex should be close to the same. The differences I saw between the 100gr of P and100gr of 777 were on the order of 20 to maybe 30fps difference. Not enough to worry about.

CamoCop

i gave my 777 away. i could never get a consistant group aswell. i switched to pyrodex and my first 2 shots were virtually touching each other. the ONLY advantage i seen 777 has over pyrodex is the ease of cleaning.