Moebedda

We got into an interesting discussion about this when I was iquiring about various muzzleloaders at this post. I'm sure the controversy about the Savage 10ML has been ongoing.

At anyrate we got into the discussion about "black powder substitutes" here on out referred to as BPS.

According to the Michigan DNR website.

"Muzzleloading Deer Seasons
During the December muzzleloading seasons, muzzleloading deer hunters can carry afield and use only a muzzleloading rifle, a muzzleloading shotgun, or a black power handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute."

We have established the fact that the ML10 is a muzzleloading rifle. The ML10 can use black powder, pyrodex or 777, which are are evidently legal to use in Michigan and fall under the term "commercially manufactured black powder substitute". You can use a smokeless powder such as Accurate Arms XMP-5744 or IMR-4227 in the ML10, but because they don't specify BPS on the packing, they are not legal to use according to pretty much everyone on that forum. I believe the MDNR feels the same way, although I am waiting to here back from them, I feel the outcome will be the same.

In challenging the wording of the above regulation, I came up with some interesting stuff.

The latest trend in muzzleloading marketing is "sulfurless black powder replacements." Those include BlackMag3, American Pioneer, and Hodgdon's Triple Se7en. They have absolutely nothing chemically in common with black powder, they are not at all similar in performance, and they are also not equivalent in weight, but these are considered legal BPRs in Michigan.

Pyrodex, American Pioneer, Triple Se7en, or flammable pellets/sticks etc. are classified as smokeless propellants by the United States Department of Transportation (Class 1.3 hazardous materials).

So what's the difference? Because some savy business types have labeled some powder as a BPS(and decided to charge almost double the price), it's legal as long as it labeled as such? Why can't I use XMP-5744 in an ML10 instead of Pyrodex? It's commercially manufactured and I am using it as a substitute for black powder. Iis there a another federal agency that determines what is considered a "black powder substitute"? or is it considered legal as long as the package says it is?

Someone needs to tell a savy marketing guy at Savage to re-package some Accurate Arms XMP-5744 or IMR-4227 and put "ML10 Black Powder Susbtitute" on the label so we can make it legal.

Here is an interesting read on this subject.

By the way. There is nothing in the state of Michigan regulations that determine what and what is not considered a legal black powder substitute.

Discuss

Doegirl75

"Not a smokeless powder, but approved to be shipped as such", is what you will find on the msds sheets of pyrodex and triple se7en. What makes those powders different than true smokeless powders? The lack of nitrocellulose. True smokeless powders are nitrocellulose based. Pyrodex is just souped up black powder and triple se7en lacks the sulfur component. Also, pyro and 777 are classified as "pyrotechnic mixtures" whereas smokeless powders are simply "propellants".

sabotloader

Moebedda

But there in lies the problem... The substitues are somewhat an equivelent of real BP - volume for volume. Even T7 that is rated more powerful than standard BP is somewhat in the area, but when compared to Swiss BP it rates abour the same.

T7 is actually a smokeless powder with a compound added to provide smoke.

wabi

I would say a black powder substitute would be any powder that can be substituted in any muzzloader safely on a volume/volume basis.

MLKeith

Most of the rules were written before smokeless muzzleloaders were on the scene so they are not very good at either allowing or disallowing real smokeless (nitrocellulous based) powders. Arizona rules state either black powder or synthetic black powder. Well by Webster's defination smokeless could be considered synthetic black powder. As for smoke, Black Mag'3 does not make "smoke" as the white cloud is actually steam. Not sure about the claim that T7 is actually smokeless powder?? I wonder if it is nitrocellulous based? Personally I think if it loades from the muzzle it should be just fine whether it is real black , one of the substitutes (synthetic), or smokeless. Just my personal opinion.

falcon

"Not sure about the claim that T7 is actually smokeless powder?? I wonder if it is nitrocellulous based?"

Itis not nitro-cellulose based.

txhunter58

Do they control the type of fuel that can be used in racecars? Not a race fan, so I don't know, but I doubt they would let stock car users use rocket fuel even if they could somehowsafely use it in their car.

Black powder substitutes pretty much equal the power of black powder volume for volume. True smokeless powder is "jet fuel" compared to them, which is why they don't allow it.

You want the power and trajectory from your blackpowder that you get with your 30-06, and that is fine, but I will lobby to keep the use of smokeless in rifle seasons. For "special" blackpowder seasons we don't need it. And I am pretty sure that smokeless muzzleleaders are legal in any "rifle" season.

sabotloader

MLKeith

It is not a nitro smokeless - just smokeless thay have to add the smoke so that they could sell it to be a BP sub and so that traditionalists might buy it.

Moebedda

Why would nitro-cellulose not be considered a substitute? Why do you think that a black powder substitute should be based on volume?

How about if we added a smoke addative to it like T7 and put the "Black Powder Substitute for Savage Muzzleloaders ONLY" on the label?(Savage really should do this)

I understand that most of the wording came out before the new smokless powder muzzleoaders. The reason it was worded that way is so people would not put nitro-cellulose based smokeless powder(i.e. normal shotgun or rifle reloading powder) into a muzzleloader because it could be very dangerous, especially is loaded on par with the same volume as common BP loads.

I'm sure the wording was in there for the "safety" factor, but now we can certainly say that a nitro-cellulose smokelss powder can be considered a safe black powder substitute for the Savage ML10.

The thing is. No one is certain. And it seems no body thus far can site any specific langauge or govenrmental document(I have been looking) reffering to the definition of a black powder susbstitute. The wording in the Michigan muzzleoading regulation can most certainly mean that a nitro-cellulose based smokelss powder is legal to use in the Savage ML10 simply because it is a reccomended black powder susbtitute for that specific gun.

Another good reference. black powder substitute - wiki with some good resource links.

sabotloader

Moebedda

Actually I think if you read Doe Girl's explanation of Federal Regulations - it becomes pretty clear that there are two separate groups of powder... BP and subs and nitro smokeless powders.

Actually here explanation is the best I have ever seen and very logical...