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Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
I have a friend who for several years has shot 150 grain charges out of his TC Black Diamond. His accuracy stinks for a scoped inline rifle. This morning on his way in from fishing he came out to my range so we could bench test it. He shot a group...about 8" at 100 yards. I told him to try 100 grains just to see what it would do. I have been telling him since he got his ML to try this but he has refused bacause he says "I want the bullet to go throught the deer." I told him I have gotten pass throughs on whitetails with my TC Hawken with 70 grains butI dontalways. Then I thought of something. I asked him to let meshoot a group with his rifle. He agreed. I loaded two 777 pellets and a 240 TC XTP. Fired the first shot, swabbed the barrel and loaded another. After the shot said "it must be bad since you arent saying where it hit." I told him I hought it might have hit the same hole. He said "if it hit the same hole it was a fluke." We walked to the target and sure enough, one oblong hole. The third shot was bit left, but snugged in nicely completing a sub 1 1/2" group. He thought his rifle sucked, andwasvery happyto say the least, but still worried that 100 grains wont completely penetrate the deer.
What is everyone experience with terminal performance vs. powder charge with different bullets? What is a good choice of bullet with penetration in mind? I dont know because I have only shot deer with 70 grains and conicals. I gave him the rest of my box of pellets since I'm not using the pellets anymore and the bullets. He gave me a cooler full of fresh crappie. mmm...fresh crappie for dinner tonight! Holley |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
Holley
I have 2 pet loads for deer... Load 1, whichI can not afford anymore because of the costs of Nosler Partitions... .451/260 gr. Nosler Partiton HP MMP - HPH-24 sabot 100/110 grains of T7-2f Remington 209-4 primer Load 2, this load I can afford and the bonded Speer hold together... .452/250 gr. Speer Gold Dot bonded HP ( a poormans Nosler) MMP - HPH-24 sabot 100/110 grains of T7-2f Remington 209-4 Load 3, I am going to shoot this one this year - I promise myself... 10mm/200 gr Hornady XTP MMP HPH-3p-EZ load sabot 110 grains T7-2f Remington 209-4 Here is a Speer targey from my U-mag...  |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
Out of his Black Diamond tell him to try two pellets and a 250 grain Shockwave. Like you, I can only guess what the penetration of the modern projectiles will be since I have little hands on experience. I normally end up hunting with a simple roundball combination that has been killing my deer for more years then I can remember.
The old myth of magnum rifles need magnum loads is busted. Too many shooters (and good shooters I might add) on this forum alone have posted results and targets of what a simple 100 or 110 grain powder charge will do and at some amazing distances I might add. Which projectile is best.. I like the copper stuff if I want to penetrate or the shockwave type bullets. Yet I hunt with a pure lead 375 grain Buffalo Bullet SSB out of my Black Diamond XR (which will kill an elk by the way) because of the accuracy.  The big lead Buffalo Bullets are a Spitzer point and they really have good energy to them.  These shockwaves I was testing out on a real windy day. But had got some Triple Se7en powder that day and was seeing how well it shot these Shockwaves. Any of them would make excellent hunting loads. |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
[align=left]Just wait until you use one of them big Bullshop conicals.....;)
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RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
Holley-Tell your friend that it will totally pass thru with the
100 grains no problem at all.Years ago when I first started blackpowder hunting I also had the same concerns.I had the T/C Renegade for my first rifle then.My load was 90 grains of pyrodex with a T/C maxi hunter bullet.My deer came along that morning which was a nice four point buck which I shot behind the front leg taking out both lungs and breaking the shoulder on the far side when it exited the deer.Deer probably went 20 yards before falling.What really impressed me was the bullet not only passed thru the deer but also so thru a 4 inch sampling tree behind it and I dug the bullet out of the ground and I knew then that 90 grains was more than enough for a pass thru and made a believer to me that it was more than enough horsepower so tell your friend not to be concerned about it.I now shoot a Barnes Expander with 90 grains with the same results and that load is awesome also.So you gave your friend some good advice! Mike |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
175yd shot with a 250gn Barnes MZ in front of 120gn of T7 2f was a complete pass through... that is a long way out there and it still had enough thump to pass through a fork horn, rib/heart/lungs/and rib going out...
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RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
Remind him that the 45/70 was used to kill many a buffalo...
If he wants full penetration tell him to shoot either the 250 Barnes all copper or the 300...with 90-110 grains of powder, its more than you need for whitetails...I shot the 300 for years and always got a pass through... I have shot the 250 SST for 3-4 years now with 90 grains of Goex FFF and have had pass throughs on the 7-8 whitetail that I have used it for. |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
ORIGINAL: XxHolleyxX I have a friend who for several years has shot 150 grain charges out of his TC Black Diamond. His accuracy stinks for a scoped inline rifle. This morning on his way in from fishing he came out to my range so we could bench test it. He shot a group...about 8" at 100 yards. I told him to try 100 grains just to see what it would do. I have been telling him since he got his ML to try this but he has refused bacause he says "I want the bullet to go throught the deer." I told him I have gotten pass throughs on whitetails with my TC Hawken with 70 grains butI dontalways. Then I thought of something. I asked him to let meshoot a group with his rifle. He agreed. I loaded two 777 pellets and a 240 TC XTP. Fired the first shot, swabbed the barrel and loaded another. After the shot said "it must be bad since you arent saying where it hit." I told him I hought it might have hit the same hole. He said "if it hit the same hole it was a fluke." We walked to the target and sure enough, one oblong hole. The third shot was bit left, but snugged in nicely completing a sub 1 1/2" group. He thought his rifle sucked, andwasvery happyto say the least, but still worried that 100 grains wont completely penetrate the deer. What is everyone experience with terminal performance vs. powder charge with different bullets? What is a good choice of bullet with penetration in mind? I dont know because I have only shot deer with 70 grains and conicals. I gave him the rest of my box of pellets since I'm not using the pellets anymore and the bullets. He gave me a cooler full of fresh crappie. mmm...fresh crappie for dinner tonight! Holley Chap Gleason |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
8"group would have me pissin fire lol. Some need to learn to back off the powder. This 150 grain mag load is way over rated and not needed. You dont even need the bullet to go through both sides either, Its nice when they do blow through both lungs, it drops them fast, but is not needed. All of my deer were pass through double lung shots and one complete pass through head shot.
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RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
With many bullets you will get better penetration at lower velocities vs higher velocities. This is due to the bullet being more prone to fragmentation or overexpansionat high velocity. A friend of mine use to shoot a home cast 255gr 44 cal keith bullet in a sabot out of his non magnum CVA using 80gr of RS. H shot a buck once through the front chest, he found the bullet under the hide between the rear legs about 30" from entry with almost 100% weight retention. Velocity was around 1500 to 1600fps at the muzzle. I think 100gr of powder should be plenty.
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RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
Thanks for all of the great information guys. I would have replied quicker but my internet was down last night. I talked to him this morning at work and he told me that when he first got the rifle he did try 100 grains but he doesnt remember the bullet he was shooting. He shot a nice buck at a very close distance and hit him in the shoulder. The buck ran off and when he went to find him he got the deer back up and had to shoot him again. He did end up getting the deer but went to 150 grains with terrible acccuracy in favor of penetration. I told him that it was probably the bullet and to try some of my Shockwaves or TMZ's and lets see what kind of accuracy he can get with them next weekend. It may have been a bullet that has a tendancy to fragment at close range. I'm trying to talk him into loose powder also. That way if the bullets dont shoot as accurately he can tailor his power charge to it. He is a bit reluctant, but will probably come around since he likes the idea of getting more shot for his dollar.
Thanks again, Holley |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
ORIGINAL: XxHolleyxX Thanks for all of the great information guys. I would have replied quicker but my internet was down last night. I talked to him this morning at work and he told me that when he first got the rifle he did try 100 grains but he doesnt remember the bullet he was shooting. He shot a nice buck at a very close distance and hit him in the shoulder. The buck ran off and when he went to find him he got the deer back up and had to shoot him again. He did end up getting the deer but went to 150 grains with terrible acccuracy in favor of penetration. I told him that it was probably the bullet and to try some of my Shockwaves or TMZ's and lets see what kind of accuracy he can get with them next weekend. It may have been a bullet that has a tendancy to fragment at close range. I'm trying to talk him into loose powder also. That way if the bullets dont shoot as accurately he can tailor his power charge to it. He is a bit reluctant, but will probably come around since he likes the idea of getting more shot for his dollar. Thanks again, Holley I don't mean to start a PowerBelt war again, (I did that last year and it is easy to go there), but if you want to revisit PB fragmentation issues and high charged loads with not well constructed bullets read this: http://www.the-gleasons.com/powerbelt_page.htm An XTP or an SST will shead it's jacket if pushed too hard, so shots at close range make it loose the jacket and loose penetration, therefore affecting terminal performce--bone hits at close range are a especially big problem forsome bullets. Finally, on penetration, bullet performance, fragmentation see this page: http://www.the-gleasons.com/bullets_penetration_tests_for_mu.htm Buy this book and read it several times, pay special attention to how various authors feel about expansion vs penetration: http://www.ramworks.net/estore.html Bullet Design is not quite a science, it is more about design at a given velocity for a given species. In fact Toby Bridges says use two bullets (one for the long range one for short range): http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/EditorsView.html However most of us don't do that, we choose a bullet based on what shoots well with our gun and use it in all situations. The solution have 2 guns one for long range, like my Savage (SW or Parker Ballistic Extremene, 44g of 5744, supplied sabot, Federal Primer), and one for <100 yards which is my Omega with 100g of 777, 300g Nosler Partition, Federal Primer using Crushed Rib sabot. Best wishes are you increase your learing on Bullet Performance. Chap Gleason |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
I used (2) Pyrodex pellets and a 300 grain bonded T/C Shockwave to take a doe last ML season in IL using my Omega. I am guessing the MV was 1500-1600 fps give or take. It was a complete pass through from approx. 80 yards (stepped off) with a great blood trail. If anyone has not tried Shockwaves, I would strongly recommend them. They are quite accurate as well.
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RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
ORIGINAL: frontier gander Some need to learn to back off the powder. This 150 grain mag load is way over rated and not needed.  |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
You're a cruel, cruel man, cascadedad.
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RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
why not just go with one of them 1000 yard shooting blackpowder sharps rifles? my sidelock is set up for 150 yards so far:D Going to do the final dial in as soon as my bullets come in.
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RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
ORIGINAL: cherokee75 I used (2) Pyrodex pellets and a 300 grain bonded T/C Shockwave to take a doe last ML season in IL using my Omega. I am guessing the MV was 1500-1600 fps give or take. It was a complete pass through from approx. 80 yards (stepped off) with a great blood trail. If anyone has not tried Shockwaves, I would strongly recommend them. They are quite accurate as well. http://www.the-gleasons.com/TC_Shockwave_300g_2007_06_02_AA5744_44g_FederalPri mer_default%20sabot.jpg I may use them this year for hunting, I may use the Parker Ballistic Extreme--both are accurate in my new Savage. I hear the bonded shoot thru a deer with no expansion, that they are more an elk bullet. Some on this forum take a high shoulder shot to help the SW open up. Is that your experience also? Chap Gleason |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
Great shot sabotloader! I love Partitions in my centerfires. I need to check them out in theT-Bolt now. Thanks for sharing the pic since I wasnt around to see it the first time.
Holley |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
That was definitely a great shot on such a small target.
 :D:D:D |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
ORIGINAL: cascadedad That was definitely a great shot on such a small target. :D:D:D
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RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
Chap - I'm pretty sure Cascadedad is making fun of the size of the deer. I don't believe they've settled the unwashed truck bet yet......if ya know what I mean ;)
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RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
you mean those 1' DIA. clay pigeons he was shooting? I heard a story that he had his wife deep in the woods with a 22-250 and everytime he'd shoot, she'd time the shot just right and she would actually hit those for him. But thats just the rumor i heard:D:D[8D]
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RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
Chap,
My shot was a slight quartering to shot and I hit a little further back than I wanted. The exit hole actually looked as if three bullets exited perfectly intact, stacked on top of one another. I actually found the blue polymer tip from the bullet in the doe when boning it out that night. This was my first deer with that bullet so I don't have a ton of experience with killing deer with them but I have shot a fair amount of the bullets. |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
yeoman
Dang! yeoman, it was the last day of the season and "the devil made me do it" - and know he has not washed the truck yet - but his time will come - I guarantee it.... |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
I have shot completely thru deer at ranges up to 80 yards with a .500 PRB abd 90 grains of DuPont FFg......... Whether your bullet goes completely thru or not depends on how many big bones it encounters inside the deer, NOT on how much powder you put in the gun thing............
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RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
My dad recently got Revolution II, and for the life of me, I cant talk him off his 150 Grn. load... Despite 5" groups at 50 Yards...
Ive put everything from 70 to 150 grains down the tube and have only once failed to get complete penetration; My 180 Grn. XTP Shattered a does close sholder and stopped on the inside of the far shoulder... |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
ORIGINAL: Whitehair My dad recently got Revolution II, and for the life of me, I cant talk him off his 150 Grn. load... Despite 5" groups at 50 Yards... Ive put everything from 70 to 150 grains down the tube and have only once failed to get complete penetration; My 180 Grn. XTP Shattered a does close sholder and stopped on the inside of the far shoulder... |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
Hey, why try something that might waste 15 minutes of his time when he was having success like that?
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RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
Cay...Like Ron White says "Modern medicine has a pill or an operation for just about everything, but....You can't fix stupid..."
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RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
according to commercials, and TV shows he saw Holley |
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
Many years ago, with 80 or 90 grains of Pyrodex RS and a .530 patched roundball, I shot at a deer standing out at about 80 yards. It dropped him and went through him,killing a second deer I did not see standing behind the one I was shooting at. People get too worried about penetration. No I am not saying buy junk bullets, but if a roundball can do that kind of penetration, think what a Shockwave, Nosler, Barnes, even a Speer Gold Dot can do.
Create an accurate load, and then shoot the animal in the right place. Let the bullet do the rest of the work. |
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