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Accuracy problem
I have to say that I'm very impressed with the wealth of knowledge and willingness to share it here. I'm disabled and have received a muzzleloader hunt in VA through Buckmaster's American Deer Foundation. I have a CVA Optima Pro that I've killed 2 deer with. Both deer were over 150 yds and I was shooting 130grains of 777 and a 240grain hornady sst (lock-n-load). Both deer ran a long way after the shot and left NO blood trail at all. Due to chronic back pain, I cannot spend alot of time at the range. I reduced my powder charge to 100grains and tried some 240 grain powerbelts. My first couple of shots were a little right of center, I made the windage adjustment and hit the bullseye. Not wanting to tempt fate, I put my gun up and let my son shoot his. Before leaving the range, I decided to shoot one more time. HUGE MISTAKE. My first shot was about 8"-10" high and 4" left of center. The next shot was low and left by the same distances in the first shot. I was shooting from a Bench Master rest, swabbing between every 3 shots or so with #13 bore cleaner, and checked my scopemounts several times. Discouraged, I went home.
This was on Friday and this afternoon (sunday) is the first time that I've been able to get out of bed due to chronic back pain. A friend from another site gave me some ideas on different bullets (Barnes Expander ML). With my limited ability to "test" different loads, could some of you help me figure out how to get a decent load without killing myself. I know that you should shoot your own gun but I am concidering sending it to someone and have them build a load for it. Sorry for the long post, just want to explain the problem in full detail. Thanks in advance for your help. God Bless, |
RE: Accuracy problem
Bigtimer, I have the regular Optima with the shorter barrel. My Optima likes 90g of 777 and 300g xtp hp. Here in Indiana my max distance needed is 100 yards or so. I haven't needed to try heavier powder loads. I have played around with the 250g xtp but my Optima sprayed them. The only consistant group out of 250g bullet for me was the shockwaves again with 90g of 777.
Good luck with your hunt and health. |
RE: Accuracy problem
245 grain powerbelt or a 295 powerbelt with 80-90 grains pyrodex RS. Also to tame down recoil, i would have a gun smith put on a limbsaver recoil pad. Had one put on my winchester and shooting a 385 grain great plains bullet, recoil feels like im shooting my 30-30.
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RE: Accuracy problem
Bigtimer
While i can not promise you anything when it comes to your rifle and/or your shot placement, but I cantell you about a totally dependable load for me. I shoot a variety of guns and harvested deer with most of them. My absolute best and most trusted venison load is 100 grains T7-2f, a .451 - 260 grain Nosler Partition HP in an MMP HPH-24 sabot, 209 ignition. Last year I shot a "toe head" buck @ 170 some yards with it from an Omega. The bullet entered the chest in front and exited out behind the right front leg - everything in the chest cavity was jello... the deer went went about 15 yards and dropped. PROBLEM - Nosler are EXPENSIVE. I have started shooting a bullet that I think will be just as effective, less money to shoot, a Speer Gold Dot (bonded).452 HP. It is a great shooter and it will do the job inside the chest cavity - the deer will be in total shock. Here is a target from my White U-Mag shooting the Speer with 110 grains of T7. Good luck in your search....  |
RE: Accuracy problem
My first thought would be to try and match the load that was working for you so well in the past. 150 yard shooting is impressive so you know the rifle and you, have the ability. Since the deer did not drop in their tracks, you could blame the bullet or the shot placment. Examine both of those factors. Unfortunatly keep in mind, not all game animals fall over at the exact point of being shot. If the shot placement was good, then we need to examine the bullet. If the shot placement was poor then you need to work on that and perhaps not take such long shots. A 240 grain SST. I will guess that you meant a 240 grain XTP which is a hollow based projectile. I will ask did the bullet get complete pass through? If you did not get pass through, you might want to change from a 240 grain XTP to something like a 250 grain SST. This would be flatter shooting at extreme ranges, and should be able to get better penetration. Or go to something like a 300 grain XTP and see how they shoot. They are larger and should put a little more wack down range on your deer. If the 130 grain charge was too much recoil for you and your back, you need to back down to something more reasonable that you can handle. Perhaps start your testing at 90 grains of powder and work up from there. If you get good accuracy with 90 grains of powder, simply get a group you can live with and adjust your range of shots you would take, accordingly. If you want to shoot the 245 grain powerbelts, try reducing your powder charge to 80-90 grains or perhaps your rifle is one of them that really likes the powder and you need to boost the powder charge more. Also be sure and twist the plastic buttons on and off a few times before loading. Even a dab of bore butter on the spike and then replace the button will help the rifle shed that button faster and normally increase your accuracy. Unfortunatly your only option is range time and testing different bullets. I shoot a CVA Staghorn Magnum not an Optima. My go to load is a 245 grain Powerbelt with 90 grains of Pyrodex RS. That does not mean it will work for you... I wish you the best of luck with your range testing. Also be careful shooting in the heat of the day as this can also effect the accuracy. Also good luck in your future hunt... |
RE: Accuracy problem
Cayugad, I was mistaken. I was shooting the Hornady sst 250gr. Both shots were a little high behind the shoulder, niether shot was a pass through.
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RE: Accuracy problem
Well at least you saw deer to shoot the Shockwaves/SST's at. Every day I hunted with them I never saw a thing. The day I went out in a snow storm with a flintlock and roundball, there it was....
Why the Shockwave did not pass through, who knows. I stopped trying to figure out ballistics a long time ago. You have a good powder charge. It should have. That is the problem when you do not get pass through and then the blood trails are not there, or hard to spot. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt you could say. It makes things tuff. I really do not know what to suggest to you. Maybe reduce the distance you are willing to shoot. Yet you hit behind the shoulder which is a good hit. Unless of course it was too high. I do not shoot an Optima and there are lots of people on the forum that do. They will have much better suggestions for you. But good luck in your adventure. Sounds like a great hunt coming up for you. |
RE: Accuracy problem
Bigtimer
Back on the thought, I do not think it is your rifle that is the problem, but more than likely a bullet or shot placement problem. Thinking of the bullet.... I'll share a little more of my beliefs, hydrostatic shock ( I use to call it hydraulic shock but someone along the way corrected me and called it "hydrostatic") I am a firm believer in this effect, while there are a lot of people - knowlegable to, that sat there is no such thing as "hydrostatic" shock. I ask a bullet that I shoot to accomplish three things90% of the time - Expand, pass through (hide, tissue, and/or bone), and create mass "hydrostatic shock" - this might sound terrible, but I do not want the animal to think there is something wrong I want them to know there is something wrong - "mass hydrostatic shock" does that. I really do wish I had taken pictures of what I am talking about - I just assumed that all bullets were suppose to operated this way, but I should have known better, I quit using Hornady bullets in my 300 Winchester Mag, because when I would shoot an elk with them I would find the copper under the hide on the front side and the lead splattered around on the inside - the animal was dead but he took his time doing it. Other bullets I have shoot pass right through the animal hardly any expansion at all - again the animal is dead it is just a matter of when... On the other hand - the Nosler 260's that I have been using for ML hunting, do pass through, do expand, and do cause massive hemorrhaging of the vital organs. An example would be the "toe head" I shot last year. The animal was quartering up to me, I had a very good chest shot and a marginalleft side body shot. I took the chest shot, I was aiming for the center of the chest under the neck, the bullet entered left of center and a little lower than expected (170+ yards). It made a real neat tight hole going in and a quarter sized hole going out behind the the right side shoulder - the bullet really did not hit any bone other than nicking a rib on the way out. When I rolled the deer over you could tell by the girgling sound there was a real problem inside. From the path of the bullet I felt I could have got part of the heart. When I got him opened up - everything in the chest cavity was jello - clotted blood - nothing was useable or identifiable. The bullet passing through the cavity in caused everything to blow up - clipping the heart started it and then it just became a chain reaction... the Noslers work. Just my thoughts.... |
RE: Accuracy problem
ORIGINAL: sabotloader Bigtimer Back on the thought, I do not think it is your rifle that is the problem, but more than likely a bullet or shot placement problem. Thinking of the bullet.... I'll share a little more of my beliefs, hydrostatic shock ( I use to call it hydraulic shock but someone along the way corrected me and called it "hydrostatic") I am a firm believer in this effect, while there are a lot of people - knowlegable to, that sat there is no such thing as "hydrostatic" shock. I ask a bullet that I shoot to accomplish three things90% of the time - Expand, pass through (hide, tissue, and/or bone), and create mass "hydrostatic shock" - this might sound terrible, but I do not want the animal to think there is something wrong I want them to know there is something wrong - "mass hydrostatic shock" does that. I really do wish I had taken pictures of what I am talking about - I just assumed that all bullets were suppose to operated this way, but I should have known better, I quit using Hornady bullets in my 300 Winchester Mag, because when I would shoot an elk with them I would find the copper under the hide on the front side and the lead splattered around on the inside - the animal was dead but he took his time doing it. Other bullets I have shoot pass right through the animal hardly any expansion at all - again the animal is dead it is just a matter of when... On the other hand - the Nosler 260's that I have been using for ML hunting, do pass through, do expand, and do cause massive hemorrhaging of the vital organs. An example would be the "toe head" I shot last year. The animal was quartering up to me, I had a very good chest shot and a marginalleft side body shot. I took the chest shot, I was aiming for the center of the chest under the neck, the bullet entered left of center and a little lower than expected (170+ yards). It made a real neat tight hole going in and a quarter sized hole going out behind the the right side shoulder - the bullet really did not hit any bone other than nicking a rib on the way out. When I rolled the deer over you could tell by the girgling sound there was a real problem inside. From the path of the bullet I felt I could have got part of the heart. When I got him opened up - everything in the chest cavity was jello - clotted blood - nothing was useable or identifiable. The bullet passing through the cavity in caused everything to blow up - clipping the heart started it and then it just became a chain reaction... the Noslers work. Just my thoughts.... http://www.the-gleasons.com/noslerpartition300g.htm I use the Nosler Partition Jacketed Pistol bullet 300g, SL uses the 45-70rifle bullet which is .458, my bullet is .452, doens't matter which one you use, they hold together, do not fragement and are one tough bullet that shoots thru a deer. If Nosler made a more aerodynamic bullet for MLers I would be using that, but they don't. Chap Gleason |
RE: Accuracy problem
I have ordered a box of Nosler Partition HP .451-260grain and a package of MMP HPH24 sabots. I also ordered some Barnes Expanders. We'll see what happends. I'll keep you posted.
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RE: Accuracy problem
ORIGINAL: Bigtimer I have ordered a box of Nosler Partition HP .451-260grain and a package of MMP HPH24 sabots. I also ordered some Barnes Expanders. We'll see what happends. I'll keep you posted. http://www.the-gleasons.com/this_is_my_savage_10_ml_page.htm You (or your son)may have to experiment with with different sabots, and you want it to load tight but not impossible, I find the crushed rib sabot works in my Knight and TC Omega, but it is too loose with Noslers in my Savage, with .452 bullets the MMP 12 work well in the Savage. Chap Gleason |
RE: Accuracy problem
Sorry it took me so long to reply but my son is only 10 years old. He shoots 70grns of T-7 with a 240 grn bullet using open sights and his personal maximum shot distance is 75 yds. He's a crackshot with his .243 but I don't think that he's capable of zeroing in my rifle.
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RE: Accuracy problem
Bigtimer
Those sabots that I promised hit the mail system today - should have Tuesday/Wednesday.. Good shooting... when you get them..... |
RE: Accuracy problem
Bullets arrived yesterday and MMP 24s should be here tomorrow. Thanks for the other sabots sabotloader.
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RE: Accuracy problem
Bigtimer,
Where do you live? Do you know anyone in your area that has experience with ML'ers that can help out? Maybe someone on the forum lives in your area and can help out. As for loads, if your going with something in the 250 to 300 grain range, 90 to 100 grains of powder should put you into the 1700 to 1800 fps range which should be enough to give you a 5" point blank range around 150 yards with enough energy to get the job done. In my 14yo son's regular Optima shooting 80gr of Pyro P and a 250 Shockwave he gets around 1650fps. With it zeroed at 125 yards he is 2.5" high at 75 yardsanddown 3" at 150yards. Energy at 150 is over 870fp.With a 300 grain SW and 100 grains of powder it's around 1750fps, it's about 2.5" high at 75 yards and down1.5 at 150 yards. Energy at 150 is over 1200fp. I prefer the 300 myself but the 250 may be better for your back. Good luck on your load and your hunt. |
RE: Accuracy problem
Thanks for all the help guys, everything that I ordered has arrived. We're going to do some shooting early in the morning before it gets hot. I have a good variety of bullets to try so we'll have to take our time and see if we can put a group together. I hope to have some good news to share tommorrow.
God Bless, |
RE: Accuracy problem
Bigtimer----- I too have had problems with Hornady SST's and XTP's, sounds very similar to what had happen to me. Some years back I had shot 2 nice bucks exactly where I had been aiming, 1 heart and 1 double lung. I had been using Hornady XTP's, in which both had not passed through. Both shots were approx. 50 yards, each had shed there copper jacket with decent mushrooming. Both bucks had ran much further than i had expected. To say the least I was a little disappointed with the performanceof the bullets. You want the bullet to tranfer its kinetic energy (the mushrooming of the bullet), but what you don't want is the shedding of the jacket, which deminishes the amount of energy transferred. This had also happened to me this year while harvesting a doe with a Hornady SST. With the Bucks I had been using 100gr. of pyrodex, with this doe I had been using 130gr. of Pyrodex and the shot was 60 yards. The bullet had not mushroomed at all, it had shattered into a bunch of little peices..... very disappointing.....
I have changed over to Barnes in which I have witnessed only 1 bullet being removed from a doe which was shot from the right rear, just in front of the right rear leg ( hard quartering away shot ) and removed the bullet just under skin of front left shoulder. The mushrooming in that bullet was like it was shown in magazines (unbelievable) and it retained almost 100% of it 's weight! Awesome bullet!! I've also seen Noslers in Partion Slugs and their expansion was also excellent..... I think you can't go wrong with either bullet, pick the one which flies the best out of your gun and I can garantee no more shedding jackets!! Good luck this year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
RE: Accuracy problem
Bigtimer - I too experienced the same problem with my CVA Optima Pro (.50 cal), but finally, after alot of trial and error, e-mails, and reading posts from other hunters experiencing the same problems, I found a cure. As far as bullets, I found that my rifle would consistently group the 295 gr. Powerbelts, w/ (2) 50 gr. T7 pellets. Lighter bullets were all over the paper.Note the word consistently. The groups were always in the 3"-3.25" range @ 100 yds.. Obviously I wasn't satisfied. I felt like there was something else other than changing bullets, that would help.
Guess what - I was right. After a tip that I read on the net, I felt like I found the extra"trick" for MY rifle. This turned out to be a mixture of 50% Windex / 50% rubbing alchohol, used for cleaning between each shot. The Windex would clean the barrel (not spotless, I wanted a small amount of fouling left over),while the alchohol would help dry it out.After each shot I would run a patch, soaked with this solution, down the barrel once (w/ breech plug removed), turn the patch over and run down once more ( one direction, both times). Before, I was using bore cleaner.Since I had the breech plug out, I would go ahead and clean off the face. Replace plug, reloadand shoot. I attribute this one step,to tightening my groupsconsistently to.50"-.75" @ 100 yds.It's the only thing that I did different. As for the Powerbelt bullet's performance on deer - I don't have a single complaint. Out of 5 deer shot w/ this rifle and load, the longest recovery was 55 yds. Three were a pass through, and the other two were just under the hide on "exit" side. I am assuming that the two destroyed shoulder bones oneach of these two deer, slowed the bullet down enough to prevent a pass through. The key to a short recovery is shot placement, ratherthan bullet type. All 5 deer were in the 170 lbs.+ range. Distances were 85 - 165 yds. Like stated on other posts- what works for me, may not work for you and your equipment, but I hope it helps. Good luck. |
RE: Accuracy problem
We got in a little shooting today and things look very promising. A band of thunderstorms put the brakes on us before we could start getting "acceptable" groups. The Nosler's grouped well but I have some tinkering to do with the load. I have several different bullets to try so I'll just take my time until I find out what she likes.
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RE: Accuracy problem
Bigtimer,
Sounds like you're on the right track to figuring out an accurate load combination. Good luck on your upcoming hunt! |
RE: Accuracy problem
Thanks wabi, I'm going to give it a go again tomorrow. The heat is a killer. Tyler shot pretty good @ 50yds using open sights. I found a CVA wolf on clearance at Wal-mart last year and only paid $79.99 for it.:)
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RE: Accuracy problem
I never dreamed that my optima pro was capable of a group this tight[:-] Two bullets from a three shot group were TOUCHING each other and the 3rd hole was only 1/2 inch from those. I really want to thank everyone for their help, especially sabotloader and wabi. I have a photo but can't figure out how to post it.
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RE: Accuracy problem
Bigtimer
Here are your targets as you sent them to me... I think you found what you might be looking for. With the 100 grains of T7 you are pushing them out the barrel somewhere between 1850/1900 feet per second with 2000 ft. lbs. of energy - they will do the job - I can testify to that one. Get your shot placement in their and you will have one dead animal... Congrats - mike  |
RE: Accuracy problem
Well Bigtimer,I guess you ought to be thinking about getting rid of that cheap ol' Optima. One of those holes isn't even touching the others.
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RE: Accuracy problem
Damn thats some excellent shooting! It makes you feel great when you find the perfect load. I bet you feel like a million bucks lol. Excellent job.
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RE: Accuracy problem
Now that's what groups should look like! I'd try another group or two with that load and if they stay like that I'd call that my hunting load.;)
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RE: Accuracy problem
Thanks guys, the next group was a little wider but still less than 2 inches. I let my gun cool while Tyler shot his and when I tried again my group really started to open up. I'm certain that it was a combination of me, my back, and the heat. So I decided to try another day. I'm almost afraid to adjust my scope.
On the way home from the range, I stopped for gas and saw a guy that used to work for me and we got to talking. He said that he bought a muzzleloader 6-8 years ago but didn't like it because it had a side hammer. I think he said that it was a Hawkins. I asked if he would be interested in selling it and he said that he'd take $50.00 for it, so I'm probably going to buy it tomorrow. I've never shot one so that'll be my next project. Y'all have got me hooked on ANOTHER hobby. |
RE: Accuracy problem
Bigtimer
he said that it was a Hawkins. I asked if he would be interested in selling it and he said that he'd take $50.00 for it, so I'm probably going to buy it tomorrow. when I tried again my group really started to open up. I'm certain that it was a combination of me, my back, and the heat |
RE: Accuracy problem
Good shooting there... that will be a fine hunting load. As for that Hawkins, I agree.. buy it before the person wakes up and realizes what a mistake he made...
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RE: Accuracy problem
Well, the guy that was going to sell me his muzzleloader changed his mind and GAVE it to me. It's not a hawkens, it's a plainsman. The rifle looks like new. It has a few scratches around the nipple and the little screw just below it has some marks from a screwdriver on it. I tried to pay him but he insisted that he just wanted to git rid of it. The only thing that I dont like is the finish on the stock but I don't know what can be done about it. Get this, he also gave me an ammunition box that he said, had some junk in it.
Here's what I found: 4 boxes of round balls a big box of maxi balls 2 lbs of goex powder no.11 caps brass powder measurer brass capper bullet puller patch puller nipple wrench patches and a bunch more "junk" My LUCKY DAY!!:) |
RE: Accuracy problem
ORIGINAL: Bigtimer Well, the guy that was going to sell me his muzzleloader changed his mind and GAVE it to me. It's not a hawkens, it's a plainsman. The rifle looks like new. It has a few scratches around the nipple and the little screw just below it has some marks from a screwdriver on it. I tried to pay him but he insisted that he just wanted to git rid of it. The only thing that I dont like is the finish on the stock but I don't know what can be done about it. Get this, he also gave me an ammunition box that he said, had some junk in it. Here's what I found: 4 boxes of round balls a big box of maxi balls 2 lbs of goex powder no.11 caps brass powder measurer brass capper bullet puller patch puller nipple wrench patches and a bunch more "junk" My LUCKY DAY!!:) |
RE: Accuracy problem
ORIGINAL: Bigtimer I never dreamed that my optima pro was capable of a group this tight[:-] Two bullets from a three shot group were TOUCHING each other and the 3rd hole was only 1/2 inch from those. I really want to thank everyone for their help, especially sabotloader and wabi. I have a photo but can't figure out how to post it. |
RE: Accuracy problem
I'd take that friend out to dinner. Its the least you could do lol. 45 or 50cal?
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RE: Accuracy problem
It's a .50 cal. It's taken me about 1 and 1/2 hours to get it clean. He said that he put a little bore butter down the barrel before he put it up. Little = 5lbs[:@]. Anyhow, he's a golfer so I thought I'd go by the proshop tomorrow and pick him up a gift certificate;). I can't wait to shoot it.
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RE: Accuracy problem
:D Bore butter is kind of nasty when it builds up. I just use it on my patches. If you need any parts, i believe Deer Creek carrys them. Great people to deal with as i found out today. 765-525-6181
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RE: Accuracy problem
Thanks, I'll save that info.
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RE: Accuracy problem
Sounds like you're getting into muzzleloading whether you intended to or not. :D
Good to hear it was in good shape. Those things can be a lot of fun to shoot. Let us know how it does when you have a chance to shoot it! |
RE: Accuracy problem
Bigtimer
Stay away from the Bore Butter for right now. There is a way to use bore butter and have it work for you, but just putting raw BB down the barrel is not the way. Treat that barrel the same as you would your Optima barrel. I use to use BB a lot but have found an alternative product Slip 2000 that works even better, so I am not using it any longer. If you choose to shoot real BP from that barrel, I really would suggest Slip 2000 or then back to using BB but - you would need to use it what I call correctly. If your interested let me know and I'll send you some thoughts. You can shoot sabots from that barrel also but i would suggest you moveto go to 300 grain bullets and the HPH-24's should work just fine. If you choose to shoot Conicals I have not found a conical much better the a 460 grain BullShop or even the 460 NE. I am assuming you will need a conical sized @ .503. I would really stay away from a lot of the other varieties out there to begin with. Start @ 70 grains of T7, but you might also want to make a change here also, instead of using 2f geta bottle of 3f it will work a lot better in your sidehammer gun. I shoot 80 grains in my TC Renegades and 90 grains in my Green Mountain barrel. Wish I would stumble on a deal like that.... |
RE: Accuracy problem
ORIGINAL: frontier gander 245 grain powerbelt or a 295 powerbelt with 80-90 grains pyrodex RS. Also to tame down recoil, i would have a gun smith put on a limbsaver recoil pad. Had one put on my winchester and shooting a 385 grain great plains bullet, recoil feels like im shooting my 30-30. |
RE: Accuracy problem
Actually i had to have a gunsmith install mine. Im not sure if the stock design is the same, but my screws went in at an angle. With the cva optima, thats more than likely a hollow stock and will require a bit of work if the screw angle was like mine. Luckily i had the solid stock:D
Or a Slipover limbsaver is also an excellent way to go! Slip it right over your original. |
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