Advice needed
 

Ok,

My son was lucky enough to draw a NR Unit 17 NM Either sex Elk tag. A handful of tags and hes one of the lucky ones.

Now the questions. Im mainly a bowhunter with 25+ years doing that. I have some gun experience and a little muzzleloader. I have a Knight that was given to me a couple years ago but I cant get this thing to group at all.

Im looking to purchase a Muzzleloader for my son for his hunt. I would like to go inline and set up a scope on it. Would like one that groups good and want him to start shooting here come July. Hes 13 years old but a big kid (5ft 8 and 145 pounds) I dont want to break the pocket book but would like something dependable and decent.

Any advice or suggestions would be great.

Don

[email protected]

RE: Advice needed
 

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/53337

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/53305

RE: Advice needed
 

ah shoot, i just noticed the cva kodiak in that link was a .45

RE: Advice needed
 

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I am going to take it for granted that the area where he was picked, a sabot can be used. I do not know the regulations.

Something you might want to consider. This is probably a once in a life time hunt for you and your son. Don't blow it pinching pennies on a barginmuzzleloader. Get the best that you can afford. Not that some of the cheaper rifles will not shoot, because they will. But for a little more money, you would have a rifle that your son could depend on the rest of his life.

Also, your Knight should be a good rifle. I can not understand why it would not group. Maybe you need to try some other combinations. I would be contacting Knight Rifles about it and see what they have to say if you have tried a number of things and it just plain will not shoot.

The CVA Optima is a good rifle. Not my first choice mind you, but it is a good rifle.

Personally for something this important, instead of buying blind off the internet, take your son to a store where muzzleloaders are sold and have him shoulder different rifles. He needs one that will fit well and one he is comfortable to hold. Consider weight of the rifle for the all day hikes, balance of the rifle, and fit of the stock.

A .50 caliber would be recommended. I would look at Thompson Center, Knight, or some of the BPI brands. Also there are some made by New England Firearms called the sidekick. Its not pretty, but they are good shooters.

Knight just came out with a rolling block model that really looks interesting. T/C also has the Triumph out. The Omega is still a hard to beat rifle. Check auction sites if you want to save some money. You can pick them up reasonable there. The T/C Omega should be coming down in price with the introduction of the new models. Watch for sales. They are good shooters. Especially with sabots.

As for the scope, get a Nikon Pro Staff 2-7x32mm. It has great eye relief, $139.00 price tag, excellent clarity, life time guarantee, and they are tuff. This is where you could save a little money and still have some quality optics.

RE: Advice needed
 

RE: Advice needed
 

Thanks for the advice so far.

Im not saying I want to go the cheapest route I just dont want to dump 8 or 900 on a muzzleloader. After reading these threads on here the TC Triumph looks real nice. I think its a great Idea on going to the local store and having him try one on his shoulder. I just dont want a salesman trying to sell us something we dont need.

Im thinking a 50 cal would be the way to go?

As far as the distance question Im not even sure how far a muzzleloader can shoot accuratly and take a elk.

Im reading through here and trying to learn as much as I can. Thanks for the advice so far and keep it coming.

Thank You

Don

RE: Advice needed
 

What area of new mexico are you hunting? I know u said 17 but what town is that near? My brother in law and sister live in Raton. A scoped muzzleloader and the right bullet/powder combo can easily shoot 200+ yards if you do your part. You looking at using a sabot or a conical?

RE: Advice needed
 

there are some elk hunters that can tell you a lot more about the distance these smoke poles can kill an elk at. Of course a lot will depend on the load you work up. I am sure it will be a real good experience. I wish your son the best of luck and hope he shoots a new worlds record. Then you can drag it out!! :D:D

RE: Advice needed
 

As cool as the Triumph looks, it is a first year model. Let's stick with the tried and true for such a rare hunting opportunity. A .50 caliber Omega your choice of stock and finish ($300-$500+) and a Nikon Omega Scope ($250). Oh yeah, Warne or Cabela's Maxima scope rings, $40.Leupoldwill workas well. I have 2X7 VX-1 on my Encore and it does just fine ($200).

RE: Advice needed
 

First, as to why your Knight won't group. I have a Knight Disc, and it is one accurate rifle with 300g XTPs or 300g Nosler Partitions and 100g of 777 loose. My son has a Kight Long Range Hunter and it also is accurate with 100g of 777 pellets using an XTP 300g. I would try to shoot the factory recommended load, bullet, sabot, primer and see how it shoots. I have tried all these bullets in a Knight and you can see the groups for yourself:

http://www.the-gleasons.com/bullets_penetration_tests_for_mu.htm

I agree with Cayugad, that you can spend a bit more money (maybe $100 to $150 more) and get an excellent lifetime rifle. I started with a Knight Disc (origonal disc), then bought a TC Omega and then bought a Savage 10ML. I believe the TC Omega is an excellent rifle for sabot shooting, and I saw at Gander Mountain this past Sunday that they had the complete TC Omega kit for $327. That is a great deal. Put a $100 scope on it and you have a very accurate lifetime rifle. My reason for buying a TC are: lifetime warranty, easy to clean, no extra discs needed, hammer is exposed making it legal in some states, hammer is only thing you pull back to shoot it--which makes it easy for a young person to operate. If you can't shoot sabots try a Harvester Saber Tooth 300g:

http://www.harvesterbullets.com/sabertooth.htm

You can also shoot a heavy PowerBelt, but you can't hit bone/shoulder with them, therefore for a young person I would stay with the SaberTooth. My brother shoots these now and likes them.
Best wishes to you and your son in choosing and sighting in the rifle. It will be fun. Chap Gleason

RE: Advice needed
 

For those who are interested, NM unit 17 is west and southwest of Socorro. From this unit west to the AZ border there are some very good elk habitat and hunting. My hunt is in unit 15, about an hour or lesswest of 17 and I have always seen elk when hunting there. In fact several record book bulls have come from that area. Some areas also have black bear and cougars in the area. The deer hunting in that area is pretty good too. Sabots and scopes are legal in all ML hunts except a few restricted ML hunts.

Good luck on your son's hunt and enjoy the great scenic beauty of the land of enchantment. Do have lots of water on handas the area is high desert and dehydration is a very real possibility. I would suggest drinking plenty of water for a couple of weeks before heading out to NM to build up your hydration.

RE: Advice needed
 

Don...Let's back up here a minute...I have owned a Knight Disc for 7 years or so...If I was going Elk hunting, I'd load up with a 300 grain Barnes all copper bullet and 100 grains of Pyrodes R-S...Several years ago I called Knight and their tech told me if a Knight wouldn't group this bullet it wouldn't group any...I know mine groups this bullet very well...The second bullet I would try is the 300 grain SST Hornady/T-C Shockwave (same bullet)...Use the same powder charge...Now this is assuming that you can use saboted bullets in that area....

2nd...Make sure all scope and stock screws are tight...

3rd...I get best results cleaning the barrel between shots, many that aren't used to shooting bp don't realize that this needs to be done...I put rubbing alcohol in a spray bottle, dampen (not wet) 3 patches and run down (both sides) then a dry patch followed by a lightly oiled patch and another dry patch....This insures that the barrel is in the same condition with each shot...

Knight made a heck of a muzzleloader when they came out with the Disc...I have several buddies that own them as well as the Wolverine and American Knight and have always been able to get them to shoot better than most shooters....I'd have to work with this gun a bit before I spent the money for something else......

PS....Are you sure the scope is reliable????

PPS...As far as range, I'd hold it to 150 yards on elk, assuming he can keep his shots in a 4-5 inch circle at that range....

RE: Advice needed
 

Rifles from T/C are always the 1st I recommend. The Omega orEncore would be long lasting, accurate, and dependable.

RE: Advice needed
 

Hey man after all the good caribou advise I can hopefully give you some!

I would look very seriously at a T/C Encore. I love mine and it shoots well. The best part is the interchangeable barrels so you can change it to whatever later on. If you get tired or don't like a caliber, you can recover quite a bit of your investment on ebay and find plenty of other barrels there. Tome an Encore is a lifetime gun.

I bought my Encore (SS/black synthetic) at BPS for about 550.00 last year. Cabela's actually had them for less with a rifle barrel but I would have needed the M/L barrel and forend. For my caribou hunt I have worked up a 300 grain Hornady SST over 110 grains of FFG T7. Ballistics show it to still carry 1200 ft/lbs at either 250-300 yards even though I wouldn't shoot that far. My guess is a 200 yd poke would be fine with the combo above.

If you want a deal on any brand new Bushnell scope, PM me.

RE: Advice needed
 

Thanks for the offers and advice so far. I will look at the Omega's and Encore's too. When I get some time inthe next week I will take my son to the local shop and try to shoulder some guns.

As far as my Knight its a Wolverine I believe. There where 3 of us at the range for a half day and we just could not get that gun to group. I shoudl look into that too and get that one sighted in.

Thanks again for the information and advice.


Don

RE: Advice needed
 

I have a Wolverine and have had excellent luck with the rifle.



I did learn that I get better accuracy when I shoot 80-90 grains of powder then when I shoot 100 grains of powder. I shoot the XTP's and the Shockwaves with excellent results. Also my rifle shoots the 300 grain Saber tooth conicals very well.

The thing when shooting sabots is you have to swab between shots for the best accuracy...

RE: Advice needed
 

Wow, those are great groups.

I think we where using 100 grains come to think of it. I will have to see what we had going.



Don

RE: Advice needed
 

Well we picked up a Omega from a gentleman that had shot it some on the range but never hunted with it. Its the 50 cal. realtree camo version, stainless barrel with a matching Nikon Omega 3x9x40 BDC scope. Got a real good deal on it and will be shooting it tommorow.

Thanks forthe insight on this great forum. Have been lurkinghere and reading threads every day now to learn.

Wont be long and we will be in NM

Don

RE: Advice needed
 

Good luck in NM Don. That Omega will be a great rifle. There are a lot of Omega shooters on this forum. I personally shoot a Black Diamond XR (among my rifles) and that is the same barrel as the Omega. It is a great shooting long distance rifle, as I am sure you will find out.

Hope you guys bag a nice elk...

RE: Advice needed
 

I also have the same set up as Cayugad (wolverine) using same powder andXTP 240grand been taking deer and hogs since the Mid 90's.

RE: Advice needed
 

As cayugad says, the Knights are good rifles. Your grouping problem MOST LIKELY is caused by theload thatyou tried, and it is likely that you can develop aload for that rifle that will shoot much better.
Contact Knoight, describe the problem, and get their recommendation for an accurate load for that model of rifle.

Then get the powder, bullets, sabots & caps you need to load it according to their recommendations.

You will probably find acuracy with a load within 10 grains of what they recommended, but since all guns are individuals, you WILL have to do some test shooting to find the particular combination of bullet and powder that is best in that specific gun.

I DON'T think your problem is going to be solved by buying another gun. If it turns out you can't get that Knight to shoot, see if they will replace it with one that will!

With a projectile of 300 or more grains, a powder charge of 90 to 120 grains will give sufficient power to cleanly kill an elk out to at least 150 yards, if placed well. Forget about those "magnum" loads of 150 grains/three pellets. Most such loads have less accuracy than lighter ones.

RE: Advice needed
 

Thanks again.

Im going to mess with the woverine and have my son shoot the TC. With the 2 of us deer hunting here we will need both guns anyway.

Don

RE: Advice needed
 

I am returning to ML hunting after 30 years of bow hunting, back injury put an end to my archery days. Since I am starting at the bottom of the learning curve again, I dont have any 1st hand knowledge about ML hunting elk here in New Mexico, but one of my best friends is an outfitter in units 15, the 16's and 23. He has seen just about every caliber and load in existence used on elk on the ML hunts. He said a .50 puts elk down no problem, with decent load you stuff in it. When he uses a ML on elk he shoots a CVA .50 with a 100 grns of pyrodex pellets and a 250 grn sabot (I'm not sure which one he prefers). He said the only time he has ever seen a .50 fail to do the job was a women hunter he was guiding who could only handle the recoil of a 50 grn charge and 240 grn sabot. She hit one in the boiler room at about 80 yards, but they never did find the elk. Even put a dog on the trail with no luck.