---

ORIGINAL: oldrookie

Don't know. Would the chart hold true for 777 as well?

---

---

ORIGINAL: Semisane

Here's what I got with my adjustable brass powder measure set at 100 grains volume. Filled it with each type of powder, tapped the side of the measurewith a pencil six times to settle the powder (it settled about 1/4"), then filled it again to overflowing, tapped it down again twice, then leveled it off and weighed it.

Goex FFGweighed 110 grains even.
Pyrodex RS weighed 78.0 grains.
Pyrodex Select RS weighed 76.7 grains.
Triple Seven FFG weighed 77.8 grains.
Triple Seven FFFG weighed 87.0 grains.

---

---

Pyrodex is measured just like blackpowder is measured. A volumetric measure is adjusted to the required load and the powder is poured in. Ex. A load for a 50 caliber rifle calls for 90 grains of FFG blackpowder or 90 grains of Pyrodex RS. The measure is set to 90 grains, the powder is poured into the measure and then poured down the bore of the rifle.

---

---

There is no advantage to weighing charges of Pyrodex or blackpowder. Because these powders are very inefficient by today’s standards, volumetric measurement is the quickest, easiest and most accurate way to measure powder.

---

---

Pyrodex is lighter in weight than blackpowder and weighs only about 70% as much as blackpowder. However, because Pyrodex yields more energy per pound than does blackpowder, the same volume of Pyrodex gives similar performance to blackpowder. Pyrodex loads given in this manual for muzzleloading guns are measured by volume, not weight.

---

---

ORIGINAL: cayugad

People, I could not agree more with you. I always was under the impression that when you measured by volume, that Black Powder and Pyrodex were the same in "power." Maybe Pyrodex had a little edge, but for instance this year I shot a deer with 90 grains of Goex 2f. I just can't believe that 72 grains of Pyrodex RS would produce the same energy down range.

When I shoot my Black Diamond XR with a 375 grain Buffalo Bullet SSB I load 100 grains of Goex 2f. And now they want me to believe that 80 grains of Pyrodex will produce the same results?

I do not own a chronograph. Of all people that should, I guess I am one who should own one. My friends around here are always asking me what velocity certain loads have and I tell them, it should be plenty but I have no idea.. or I read another person's posts who uses Triple Se7en (yes sabotloader I keep track of your numbers) and he got this with this load.. etc.

It was just when I saw that chart, it really threw me for a loop. I was shooting 110 grains of Goex 2f out of my .58 caliber GMB with a roundball. 88 grains of Pyrodex is going to give me that same thud down range? Well today I got out my scale, powder measure, Goex 2f, Pyrodex, Pyrodex P, Triple Se7en 2f, Triple Se7en 3f, and American Pioneer Powder 2f, and the new tubes and caps (thanks Lane) and measured out sixty different loads to replicate this chart and some other shooting suspicions I have. I was very careful in getting an average weight, and all loads are not more then .01 different then the others. Just to double check I even weighed some of the tubes to compare them. And they were equal.

If it don't rain tomorrow, I might just do some field shooting on my own to see what happens. My new shooting platform/rest I bought will be here tomorrow along with a couple hundred new sabots, and it will give me a chance to test that as well.

Are those Chrony .. chronographs any good they sell at Midsouth Shooters Supply?

---

---

ORIGINAL: Sharp Shooter

Cayugad, You need to get a Chrono. I am thought you would have one by now. Anyone have a chrono who has compared Pyro and Black?

Truthfully, I do not notice any difference between Goex and Pyrodex. They both smell like sulfer, they both smoke a lot, and they both ignite fine for me. I think Pyrodexreally close toGoex. I would not guess there would be that much difference. I know they probably did some tests before they put that in there though. That is very interesting.

---

---

ORIGINAL: cayugad

that's the one I was considering.. thanks for the link.

---

---

ORIGINAL: Doegirl75

I have not chronographed Pyrodex RS, but I get an average of 1731fps with 100grains of Pyrodex P and 1822fps with 100grains triple 7 ffg. This is with a 250 grain shockwave bullet out of an Encore.

---

---

ORIGINAL: falcon

Have used Hornady SST bullets (Shockwaves)to kill several deer and a couple of dozen hogs-some very big ones. Yes, sometimes the retained weight is not just wonderful, but i could care less since all my shots on hogs werebang flops or near bang flops.All but one deer was bang flopped, it was hit lowthrough both shoulders at 160 long paces.My favorite load for the Encore is 90 grains of JSG. For my old CVA Staghorn it is 100 grains of Pyrodex RS.Used to use very heavy loads of powder for deer and hogs but found that this is not needed. There is a bonded Shockwave bullet for you guys who want high retained weight.

---

---

ORIGINAL: dmurphy317

Hey Chap, I recently got the F1 Master that is listed down the page just a bit. I like the fact that the display is remoted to the shooting table where it is more protected. And at $15 more than the plain F1 it is a good deal at that price, I think I paid about 5 or 10 dollars more than the sale price they have on it. I haven't used it a lot yet but so far it seems to work just fine.

---

---

ORIGINAL: Doegirl75

Chap: I used the Shockwaves last year. I was not happy with them. They do, however, shoot very well out of the Encore. I thought the bullet would good to compare velocities between two different powders.

---

---

ORIGINAL: Underclocked

The chart Cayugad posted at the beginning of this thread is "reasonably" accurate but would leave a lot of questions and has, by itself, no real application as energy content is not even a factor. All that chart is telling you is that Pyrodex (probably the original RS variety) weighs 80% of an equivalent volume of "some" black powder (which?).

That's neat, but it tells you nothing about the energy content or load behavior of either powder. The chart is not advising loads for either powder, it's simply showing that same weight relationship for a variety of volumes. Replacing that chart with a simplestatement would have provided just as much information... "Pyrodex (?) weighs 80% as much as Black Powder (?) when comparing equal volumes." And that by itself is as useful as saying 1 cup of nitroglycerine weighs 80% as much as a cup of water.

That bit of information is useful only when combined with the added knowledge (claimed) that Pyrodex(?) and black powder(?) possess roughly equal power for roughly equal volumes. So volume to volume, the two powdersproduced resultsessentially the same.Not such a heavy information load to carry around and one which worked well with the common equipment in use by muzzleloaders -namely volumetric measures.

But then comes BlackMag (in one of its numerous formulations and names), Triple7 (whose energy content has changed), Clear Shot, Clean Shot, American Pioneer, PELLETS!!! of this or that, and yadda-yadda powders all trying to use volume equivalence in the description of their power potential. It's really pretty crazy and no wonder at all why folks are so easily confused.

Look in any reloading manual for centerfire rounds and you won't see much mention of "volume equivalence". You will find grain weights and correspondingpressures/velocities developed for a given set of components in a specific test rifle. Things are a whole heap more standardized in the centerfire world, data is much more specific and useful, and the safety factor involved in using that information must be considerable in this world of lawyers and law suits.

Part of the appeal of muzzleloading has been theindividual'smethodology and the personality of his equipment. Hopefully that will remain the case but the vagueness of load description by the various manufacturers is cause for concern. There MUST be a way to more reasonably describe both recommended and maximum loads than the confusion that exists today.

Even aside from the nonsensical approach used in describing the power of "pellets", comparing regular black powders can be a challenge. What rules of thumb does one use if switching between Goex, KIX, Swiss, or Elephant...? The differences even there are not insignificant.

Mypersonal opinion is that pellets have done more to add confusion to this quagmire than any other single element. And now we have "magnum" pellets. [:-]

---

---

ORIGINAL: cayugad

So my question is, do you agree or disagree? If so any chronograph data to back your points?

---