Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

I have been shooting my .50 caliber Traditions Woodsman rifle a lot lately. I started at 25 yards and have worked my way to about 75 yards. I swab between shots and have been using 80 grains of 777, .490 patched round ball and CCI magnum caps. I am using the standard sights that came with the rifle.

I would like to know how all the other open sight shooters tighten up their groups? Is it just a matter of practicing more, changing sights, and/orexperimenting withdifferent loads at different ranges? I am happy with the current load I am using.At 50 yards, I was at about 3 inch group. At 75 yards, I am at about6 inch group.

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

I'd switch to pyrodex RS. i never had any luck with triple 7 and PRB when shooting for tight groups. 80 grains RS would be a great load to start off with. My traditions flintlock for example loves 110 grains goex. Im betting RS would help you out a lot.

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

southpaw - great rifle there. I have two of them. As for getting a tighter group there are a couple things you can try. You can experiment with different powders and with different charges. Some rifles while they like a powder such as Triple Se7en with really tighten up the group with a simple switch to say Pyrodex RS or even Goex or some other powder. Also you can try putting a wad between the powder and the patch. Triple Se7en has a habit of eating patches. You did not mention what condition the patches were in after being shot, but the further you go back in distance the even more critical the patch condition will show on a target. Here is a reason for the wad between the powder and the patch as it will protect the patch.

So, you can change powders, change charge amounts, change projectiles, lubes, patches, all of these might or might not effect your accuracy. Also you're right, practice is the best medicine when it comes to getting better groups. The more you learn your sight picture, and the trigger pull of the rifle, all of that, will show on the target. Be very careful next range trip to address the rifle in as close a manner each and every time, when you shoot. What I mean is, where the stock fits your shoulder, where your cheek rests on the comb, where you grip the rifle and how hard you grip. If you pull a rifle to hard into you, that can effect your accuracy. If you hold them too loose, the same can happen. Somewhere in all of that is a happy medium that only range time will tell you of.

I would start with the address of the rifle to your shooting stance. Try and be consistent. Use the same aim point and sight picture. Practice breath control. In time, all of that will pay off and the group size will be cut down.

I bought a Tradition Woodsman Flintlock with a 1-48 twist not too long ago. I really like the way the rifle shoots. My other Woodsman has a 1-66 barrel and is percussion cap. In the Flintlock I shoot 85 grains of Goex 2f. I learned the rifle does not like 3f as well. In the percussion I can shoot almost anything with excellent results. Pyrodex RS and a roundball does real well.

Good luck and keep shooting. By the way, I have a couple friends that I shoot with, that would be real happy for a 6" group at 75 yards. One limits his shots to 50 yards or less because of his group size. Of course when hunting and he sees a deer, he wiggles so bad, the only safe place is behind him as there is no telling where he will shoot. :D

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

Many things can influance a group,with my hawken I had to go 5 th bigger on the ball and to a thicker patch, 777 is known for blowing patches ,I suggest pyrodex I had one 50 cal that would only shoot good with P but with 90 gr. ofP it would shoot 2.5 inch groups at 100yds. Look at your patches if they are burned or torn up then you will have to start by fixing that. Lee

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

You have a friend like that too??? The only difference is mine is using a bow and arrow and as long as I am at least 50 yards away, I am safe.:D
I have some of the RS and will give that a try. I was hoping to stay with triple 7 because of the cleanup, but if it will tighten the group, I am all for change. I assume that I am burning up my patches as I am not finding them down range.I will put some cornmeal with the load and see what happens. What else could I try besides corn meal.

I assumed the correct answer to all this would be practice, and I don't mind that at all. I practiced shooting standing and sitting and try to do both with every outing. As far as the sights, any suggestion on that? I would like something with a halo around it, but I don't think Truglo offers that for octagon barrels.

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

http://www.truglo.com/content/products/firearm/muzzleloader/muzzle_brite.asp


If your not finding any patches, I am guessing that they are being blow apart. It is no wonder the accuracy is starting to suffer at longer distances. Try some corn meal. 20 grains is plenty. Cream of Wheats can also be used. Although you might become labeled a cereal killer... :D

Another thing you can do is go to a hardware or tool store and get a cheap 1/2 inch hollow hole punch and some 100% wool felt construction grade. Punch out a bunch of bore buttons. Smear a little more butter on them and use them between the patch and the powder. It will protect the patch and help keep the barrel cleaner.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=3838

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

I shoot a CVA Mountain Staker in .54 caliber. I shoot 80 grains of Triple Se7en 2f, load a felt wad, then the patch and ball and this is a deadly rifle. I had to add that wad because the Triple Se7en was blowing out the patch. Once that was done, you could almost reuse the patch if you really wanted.

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

I wouldn't be happy with a 3 inch group at 50 yards...and I shoot flintlocks...
When I was younger and had better eyesight I used to shoot in competition
I could consistantly keep all my shots inside 1 1/2 inches at 50 yards...Now
my guns are custom and have 42 and 38 inch barrels and the sights are
finer than on production guns...I agree with changing powder, I only shoot
Goex black powder, even in my Knight inline, I just don't worry about easier
cleanup, not in a black powder gun, it just goes with the territory...

You definately need to work up a load that does not burn the patches...Either
use cornmeal, Wonder Wad, hornets nesting, whatever between the powder
and ball...I would also work with different patch lubes and use at least a .015 or a .018 patch and only use cotton parching...If real black powder is hard to get, try Pyrodex R-S and then try different charges....Once your recovered patches look like they can be used again you are on the right track....A charge between 75-100 grains is plenty for whitetails....I use 80grs FFF Goex in my .54 and have never had a problem with
this load....

Lastly, try the 6 o'clock hold, I seem to get tighter groups using this...

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

I guess when I say happy with 3 inch groups, you have to realize that I have only hunted with inlines prior to this rifle and nothing without a 3 x 9 x40 scope so 50 yards didn't seem that far. When you are looking at a 4 inch circle at 50 yards with open sights, knowing where to put the dot is a little more complicated. I should have said that I am satisfied, but it is a work in progress.

I will pick up some buttons and trysomecornmeal as well. I will also shoot tomorrow with pyrodex and see what happens. I won't be able to get to bass pro tonight or I would pick up some Goex as well. Once I have a good load and am not blowing up patches, I will work on my technique and holding on the shot. I will also try to shoot off of a bench or bags tomorrow.

Thanks for all the help

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

i always aim at the bottom of the black circle.

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

With open/peep sights,I use a large 17" archery target, Then I take bright yellow duct tape and make a cross over the target. That way you can see where your front sight is on the target.
Redclub

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

Be happy with your groups---don't be beating yourself up to get better, that will only disappoint you.

You should try to get them as good as you can though. Try different powders, loads, and bullets, and if you want the best accuracy, learn to swab occasionally. One key to shooting better groups for me is to have a good target thatI can see real well. I just put a black circle on a paper plate and I can always see it. The number one key, by far, is practice, so work on your form, make sure you aren't flinching the shot, and have a good time doing it!!!:D;):)

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

Think there was one Q that wasnt asked here, was 3" done off hand or off the bench?
From the bench Id agree with everything suggested as you should really be getting a 5 shot cloverleaf at 50 yds with everything done up right off the bench.

Now iffen yer getting 3" offhand well, a silver star goes to the shootist. I reserve gold ones fer those that can do 3" offhand at 100... :D

D.

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

While corn meal and wads will work even with pits in the barrel I personally believe that getting the proper combination of patch and ball so you get a good looking patch is going to have an end result of better accuracy if you talk to the long range hawken or mountainman compitition shooters that shoot under 20 inch strings or the round ball bench shooters you will fined thays where most of them start with a gun they are getting ready for compitition. Lee

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

Lemoyne,

Yer preachin' to the choir, I happen to be one of them folks that has competed in the Mt man shootin events since the mid 70s yer suggesting I get advice from...

Now iffen others want my "secret" recipe fer decent groups (I'm typically good fer 2x-100 @50 yds and around 88-90 at 100 offhand) out of a .50 T/C Hawken, its all in having a mojo bead blessed by a Blackfoot shaman hangin from the guard...

Iffen ye twist my arm I'll say 85gr 2f Goex, .015 patch, CCI magnum#11 caps and the rest is consistency of loading-cleaning after each shot, practice, practice and more practice.

Keep yer powder dry,

D.

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

Southpaw, knowing nothing about muzzleloading, I used the same tactics I used handloading formy .308. Bought a CVA Buckhorn last winter, tried Pyrodex 1st and Powerbelt Aerotips. The 348 grain dropped real fast, the 245 was all over the place, but with the 295 grain aerotips and 100 grains of pyrodex, I'm consistently getting 3" or less groups at 100 yards. Even can get a consistent 8" group at 200 yards. Open sights of course, can't hunt ml elk here in Colorado with a scope. MyCVA has a 1 in 28" twist, so it seems to like those powerbelts. Have yet to try anything else bullet wise. Drew my first ml tag today and really looking forward to calling one in so I can try my hand!

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

IMO the quality of the open sights that are on today's rifles are inferior. Alot of inaccuracy is due to poor sight quality. I personally detest the fiber optic sights. Yes they may be easy to see, but I find them to fail miserably at the range.

I suggest you put a good quality Lyman or Williams peep sight on the back, and a good qualitybead(I like white) on the front. I will bet your groups will shrink drastically, and very quickly. I also suggest you get one of the twilight rear peeps. Thy make shooting in low light conditions very easy. Also one last thing-I like 3F black powder. I believe it is more consistent. Try it. Tom.

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

David what years did you compete? I was competing most yaers between 1970 and 1990. Lee

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

Still do compete but only at the local levels-vous, never went to the regional-national shoots. I'm not that good under pressure and too easily psyched out...
I started just a tad after I got my T/C in '76 while in CO but did most of my comps in CA when I could get to the vous and local in the SF bay area at club shoots. Havent had the time since I moved to MT so Im about 3 yrs out of "practice". Even then its hard to put a 2x-50 up against someone that gets 5x-50 like some of the yahoos Ive run into...

Keep yer powder dry,

D.

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

One thing that has help me immensely is to degrease your rear sight, mask a 1/16" size "post" in the center of the U or V notch with masking tape and paint a white post there. I used my wife's white fingernail polish. (has to be pure white). I also painted my front bead white. This does two things - it helps with sight alignment, especially in low light and is a good contrast to the target, be it a black dot or deer or whatever.

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

Now this is just my personal opinion, but I think a lot of the poor/could be better typegroups with open sights is caused by the sight itself. For instance, the sights that come on a Thompson Center Renegade are so thick that at 100 yards they cover the bull of most targets. How can someone shoot for a smaller spot with a sight that large? My Lyman Trade rifle has a buckhorn sight on the other hand that I find very easy to focus with.

My friend used to always take a silver dime and cut it in half. He would then sodder that to a wedge and shape that for a front sight. Being that color and thinner, he shot much better groups with it.



These sights, made by Lyman are sold through Cabela's. They are one of my favorite style. For some reason I can focus on them and I get a great sight picture. I have a friend that shoots them and I have had the opportunity to shoot his rifle and they are very nice. I have a rifle that I am going to replace the irons with for these.

If sights are not the cause, the I look at the shooter's stance, and finally their eye sight. That is of course if they have a load worked up. I personally have found that out to 75 yards with open sights I am fine, but I am finding more and more problems when I start pushing the 100 yard mark. I actually think I will rethink my max distance with iron sights. That is a personal choice on my part as I'd hate to wound an animal.

RE: Tightening Groups with Open Sights
 

Id be inclined to agree with the biz about thinner being better. I use a german silver front blade (lots of folks that cater to the vous crowds sell them and they fit most std. dovetails). Rear is a homebuilt full buckhorn that I did a special cut to match the front blade via a dremel cutoff saw.

But as you pointed out (indirectly) sometimes getting the rear, front and target all matched up at longer ranges with *older* eyes may require yet another change from blades to possibly a peep and either a bead or a hooded front with interchangeable reticles...

Some folks go cheaper and cut a new rear sight dovetail and move the rear sight forward on the barrel. Kinda interesting when one runs across a piece with 3 or 4 dovetails with the sight in the furthest point cuz of old eyes are causing focusing issues...

D.