My 1st muzzeloader
 

Hello All!

I find myself very intrigued by the new muzzleloader rifles for hunting, so I thought to ask...If you could only afford to buy one muzzleloader, what would you buy? I plan on using it for hunting a variety of species like boars, deer and maybe elk if I'm lucky...oh and do some target practice of course...

What else do I need to plan to purchase for a basic set up?

Thank you for your advice!

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

Info on where you're from and what type of muzzleloader you're looking for will help us to narrow it down.

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

You first need to check the hunting regulations for the areas that you intend to hunt. Once you narrow that down to what is legal and what is not you can better make a decision on the ones that are left.My first recommendation isif youcould find a White S-91, or Ultra Mag (which is nearly impossible) you would likely be set for anything you wanted to hunt. I just found a White 97 in perfect used condition for $300 and it is great. Stick with at least .50 caliber as many states require at least a .50 cal for elk. It is also the caliber of choice with most so bullets are easier to find. The Whites do take a slightly oversize bullet so that is one slight negative to those great rifles. They will shoot multiple shots without swabbing between shots which is a positive when hunting; especially with elk as they are difficult to stop. Depending on what you want to spend the lower price recommendation from me would be an NEF Sidekick (or Huntsman which has been discontinued). I have the Huntsman. I also have a T/C Omega which is picky on what you can force down the bore. The Omega tends to have a very small bore compared with the rest of the ML market. If smokeless powderis legal where you want to hunt then another whole area opens up as there are smokeless powder muzzleloaders but they are on the upper end of the price spectrum. Personally I do not recommend the Spanish or Italian rifles mainly due to problems getting parts when required. Service is the best with companies like T/C or H&R/NEF as they are American and easier to deal with. CVA I understand has pretty good service but I would rather deal with all American.

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

Rookie Bowhunter- frontier gander is right on the money here. Are you interested in traditional rifles or the new modern inline styles? Also what kind of price range are you looking at? Optics? Laws in the state you hunt, for instance ignition system and rifle styles (some states do not allow closed breech or 209 primers)? Projectiles? Distance you might encounter to shoot?

As for what else is needed, well there are projectiles, caps or primers, powder, measuring device, cleaning patches, cleaning supplies, loading supplies, short starters, and a lot of other things. The good point is a lot of this can be found around the house or is a one time purchase. Except for the caps, powder, and projectiles of course.

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

I hunt in northern California, and I'm interested in the new inline systems...in CA during the muzzeloading only seasson I cannot use scopes, only open or peep sights...other than that I did not see other restrictions...I wish I could spend $500 or less in the rifle only so I can buy all the other stuff needed...

I also would like to stick to the American made...

thank you again!

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

Dont let that "american" made stuff go to your head. I also believe cali is banning lead bullets? I read that some where.

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

Id go with the cva elite, its a blackpowder/centerfire combo rifle. The .50cal Mler barrels are accurate as hell. $400 for a 50cal muzzleloader/ 30-06 centerfire combo. Extra barrels are also cheap. They have a 300win mag and a 45-70 coming out next month i believe.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/36_218

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

Knight and TC

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

DIDO!!!!! NEF is also decent. If you buy those brands you won't be disappointed. Just buy the one that fits your budget, hunting style, and overall appetite. Decide for yourself.

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

Rookie Bowhunter

If you were to consider a NEF - do a lot of homework. While some people love them there are also a lot of people that have really been disappointed with them also.

While older Knight's and most TC's are fine products, I certainly do not put the NEF in that class. Now that is just me so check around. It would be my opinion the upper class rifles in the BPI line would serve you better than a NEF.

Also, and I do not what type of hunting you plan to do - but do not rule out the more traditional guns. Some states the rules are so tight that an ordinary sidelock might provide you with more opportunities than an inline.

Most all inlines today require 209 ignition, yet many of the states out west still require percussion cap ignition along with am all lead projectile, and no optics...

Good luck in your search, hope everthing works out well for you. I would almost guarantee you what ever you buy it will not be your last... it is addictive.... I would almost be willing to bet you also that you are not shooting the bow today that you bought as your first bow...

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

You know, I'd maybe look at the traditional rifles. Inlines get a lot of attention for being "easier" to load and clean, but there really isnt that much of an advantage. When i bought my inline, it was awesome, but lately ive started buying traditional and have felt a lot better and more part of the muzzleloading act. Take your time and shop. When i hunted with my flintlock lastyear, i felt so much more involved with the country i was hunting. I always noticed myself using cover, being quieter and when i saw deer, i slowed down and worked into range a lot slower. With my inlines i know whatever is within 150 yards its going down. Just something to think of before you buy.

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

For $500 or less, a TC Omega or a Knight such as the KnightRolling block, which was just evaluated in the current issue of NRA American Hunter. Also gun evaluationshere:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2h.muzzleloader.htm

There is also a selection on buying inline ML.

For bullets that are not lead Knight sells a Ultimate Slam 285g made by Barnes. Any of the Barnes bullets are good, read the articles in the above link on Bullets. For a good peep sight the RMC Sports Vpeep is good for far sighted people i.e. most over 40 years of age.
Chap Gleason

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

Thank you all for all the great advise! You're right, I need to take my time and research much more...is just that some times you just want to try new things like...right now!:D But you guys are right, I should not rush...
Regarding the lead bullets in CA...you are required to remove the lead bullets from your kill as well as the tissue impacted...it's a pain, but this is just required if you're in Condor range...now for waterfowl...you just cannot use lead...

I kind of like the TC Triumph...looks so pretty!!:) and the Remington Genessis seems to have nice features...but since I can only use open.peep sights I might just look into a more tradicional style...

ohh! And yes I still use my 1st bow!...but not for long!! [8D]

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

Knight also came out with a couple new models which I think deserve a look as well. Especially the rolling block they have now. I really like that. As for the Remington Genesis, Underclocked has one that he tuned all up and I think he was wanting to sell it. You might want to check with him.

As for the traditional rifles, too many people think only inline rifles. Like CA, Wisconisn is not allowed any magnification scope, so you are limited to your eye sight and your projectile. While I own a lot of inlines and some real fine ones... I shot my deer last year with a .54 caliber flintlock.

Traditional rifles can also be purchased to do specific things. For instance, buy a new or used T/C Renegade or a .54 caliber T/C Hawkins, and Green Mountain barrel company sells drop in barrels that can let you do about anything you want. They come in calibers from .32 caliber for small game to .62 caliber for shotgun. They have fast twist 1-28 for sabots and conicals, they have 1-70 for shooting roundball only with extreme accuracy, and they have smoothbore barrels for loading a 343 gr roundball if you want some real power and can get close, or load shot and hunt turkey, rabbits, what ever. Its a 20 gauge shotgun basically.

Lyman is another company as is Cabela's. They make carbines with fast twist, they make long rifles with 1-32 for shooting conicals, they make 1-60 for the person that wants to hunt with a roundball...My favorite is a Lyman Trade rifle in .54 caliber with a 1-48 twist. It shoots roundball excellent and conicals. There are lots of options. Also anyone that tells you a traditional is not weather proof, needs to study them more. Two years ago, hunting with a traditional rifle, I dropped it (actually myself but we will not go there)in the creek. It still fired when I tested it. Its all how you learn to load them and care for them.

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

I certainly don't put the NEF in the same category as the Knight or TCs but I like the guns for the price they cost.

TC's top of the line, with Knight close behind. NEF seems to be in the middle of the pack(in my opinion).

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

It would be my opinion the upper class rifles in the BPI line would serve you better than a NEF.


That's definetely disputable.

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

Wow! so many options!! I like that T/C with Green mountain barrels seems like you can to so much with it...I'm still learning all those twist rates, powders, balls, conicals, sabots...etc, etc...it can be overwelming for the new comer[:o]...but at the same time all is very interesting...can any of you recommend a good book that can walk me through it?

Thank you again for all your help!

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

Not really outdoorslover. Sabotloader doesnt really speak up much about BPI that often and when he does, you better take his word for it. He also did say "Upper" class BPI, Kodiak,pro,winchester line, Optima- optima pro exe.
The nef IMO drops down into the cva wolf class. Cheaper rifles but good dependable rifles.

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

I guess I'll throw in my amateur opinion. I do believe California does not permit scopes during the muzzleloader seasons. So your stuck with peeps or iron sights. That'll limit your effective range. What's the point in purchasing an inline "sabot" gun like an Omega? I don't see the value of lighter bullets in close range (100yd in) situations. Why not get something that'll accurately chuck bigger chunks of lead (or powerbelts) like a sidelock or a White inline? White as a company no longer exists. However, I've never heard anyone call a White rifle a POC. My sidelock conical shooter set me back an entire $175 for the gun. Just food for thought.

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

One of the best books on MLing is this:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0873419510/qid=1114882877/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-8867395-7390420?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

If you don't want to pay anything read all the content on this web site:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2h.muzzleloader.htm

especially the getting started stuff. MLing is about a complex as compound bow hunting, with arrow type, arrow weight, broadhead type and weigth, release type, rest type and bow type. It takes a while to get the proper gear and types of stuff. Many folks on this forum don't shoot CF (Center Fires) any more, tend to only shoot MLers, many traditional such as caplock and FlintLock. All are fun and have their challenges, accuracy of a good rifle is NOT one of them though. It will cost you about $100 in gear, cleaning rod, cleaning supplies, bullets, powder, speed loaders, gear box, yata yata. It takes a while to acquire good gear once you get a gun.
Chap Gleason

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

Thank you, that site si great!!

I will continue saving my $$ so I can buy a good one...

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

Relative to the NEF I have a .50 Huntsman and I bought it used for cheap. I will say the trigger is one of the best I have experienced on that low a price rifle. The barrel is also slightly oversize which makes it similar to the White rifles (at least in size). That makes loading a lot easier. If you consider an NEF be advised there are several things that you should do to make it perfect. First the ramrod has to be replaced with the one from Hubbards outdoors at $25. Then I put the .25ACP conversion breechplug on mine to eliminate the plastic carriers. I did the same with my Omega as the .25ACP conversion is really an advantage for a couple of reasons. It allows more fine tuning for primers. The primers are less expensive and the .25ACP brass is a lot easier to handle than a 209 shotgun primer. In the NEF it also makes it less prone to blowback into the action. I like my Omega but I am starting to think I like the NEF better. I just got a Model 97 White Whitetail Hunter on an auction site and it is likely to become my most favorite based on reports from other White owners. They are difficult to fine but fine rifles when you find one.

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

You got time, November is hunting season. Right now it is effectively May, so may and june do reading on the web and visiting 2 or 3 gun shops. Listen to their what the have to say, feel the guns develop a "short list of guns" then ask on this forum what people think of them. buy the gun in June. research loads and bullets in June/July. Start target shooting July, Aug Sept searching for best bullet and load for the gun (it takes a while). Hunt bow in Oct, very little shooting, I know I hunt bow also. Hunt ML in Nov, hunt CF opening day only. Hunt ML reset of time.
Best wishes on yourgun selection. Chap Gleason

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

That sounds like a plan!!:D

I don't have gun shops close by where live...maybe one but don't carry much...from what mail order site do you recommend to to get it, may be Cabelas? I was also seeng a good selection at Cheaper Than Dirt...

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

Where to purchase depends on the kind of rifle you want. There are many on line stores and even auction sites where you can get NIB for a lot less then normal..

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

Feel is important, find the gun you want to get by reading reviews and then go to the vendor web site and find the nearest dealer closest to you. I have only bought 1 gun online a used FL from Gunbroker.com, it was an excellent deal (paid 300 shipped to me for a $550 gun). Cabelas is a great place to shop, but they have limited selection, sorta mainstream stuff. Track of the Wolf, RMC Sports have more and better ML selection. You can also get a good used gun at:
http://www.williamsgunsight.com/gunsights/813usedblkpowderguns.htm

they will ship you a BP gun and you can try it for 3 days even shoot it, but must return it cleaned and you pay shipping if you don't want it. They have a couple of Caplock MLers for $119 and $149 that are Thompson Centers. TC is an excellent brand of rifle with a lifetime warranty, if you buy it and something is wrong with it, you send it back in to them (you pay ship) and they fix it, no questions asked and ship it back to you. My hammer on my Omega wouldn't hold back, so I sent it in right after Christmas, and got it back first week of March, it was about 2 months but I got a completely new trigger assembly a new breech plug. I shot the gun last weekend and my results are on the forum here:
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2100766

So I recommend TC highly, but they are expensive, compared to other guns. You can't go wrong with any of the TC line, the Triumph is one beautiful gun:

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/triumph.php

So you can buy middle of the line---NEF, CVA, etc but top of the line is TC and close behind it is Knight. Use to be other way around about 8 to 10 years ago. Anyway those are my likes. I recommend you handle one that your going to buy, like a friend's or something like that.
Chap Gleason

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

My Omega will throw 340 gr PR Dead Centers inside 2 inches @ 100 ydsall day long with 2 T7 50 gr pellets and a 209 Win primer. That is with a scope. Put a good peep sight on it and I'm sure you could keep them inside 5 inches at 100 if your eyes are good enough. I'm sure there other good shooters out there as well.....;)

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

I have shot thatbullet and loadin my Omega and it is great. My only issue with them is that there were very hard to get a few years ago (Pricy also), Cabela's didn't have they yet, the next year they started carrying them. I called the company and the owner of the company picked up the phone and I wish I could have recorded it, because we talked (he talked and I listened) and he told me about bullet testing and accuracy and penetration a lot of stuff. Chap Gleason

RE: My 1st muzzeloader
 

They all have thier good and bad points. I really like my traditions stuff. I havnt had a minutes issue with it my wife is now starting to shoot my traditions deer hunter percussion nice low cost way to get started the deer hunter with the starter kit is around 200 and will get you started and work fine. But if you can and want to start out with a better unit by all means do so Just take a gander at traditions higher end stuff too I am impressed with them.