Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

I am beginning to wonder if my Winchester Apex is what I made it out to be. Could it really be Spanish Junk?

Iwent out today and shot her again. As you all know from my previous posts, I just recently sighted her in 2 inches high at 60 yards and dead on. I used those Powerbelt AeroTips and 100 grains Pyrodex. I won't go into all of the details. To make a long story shortI know she's sighted in at 60 yards and I was getting decent groups.

Today I had to go and shoot some because of the nice weather. Having used most of my bullets sighting in I only had 6 left. I figured, hey I'll go and see what this thing can do at 100 yards. I'll get all the bullets to touch. THINK AGAIN!!!! I fired five times in arow at the target and didn't even hit the board. This is one of those big targets for sighting in. I had it stuck on an old archery target and therefore was shooting at a 2 foot diameter target. I could not even hit that. I swabbed between each shot with solvent followed by dry patches, had a rest, and did everything perfect. I was using the same load as usual. Why couldn't I hit it!!!!???
I am not a perfect shot but I have never missed a target that size 5 times in a row at 100 yards.

To make things even more weird, I went up to 60 yards with my last bullet and hit 3 inches high and just a tad left(which was an ok shot for where I had sighted it). I'm out of bullets and completely frustrated. I've had my ups and downs with the gun but I am PISSED. I'm almost ready to return it again. Why mess with a gun that won't shoot predictably?

There was a crosswind--probably 15 mph. I don't honestly think that this could have altered the POI by feet though. Please help me out! If I have a piece of crap gun I'd better figure it out soon before it's too late to return it. Am I a lousy shot or this a piece of Spanish junk???!!!!!!!

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Look at some of the other discussions on longer range shooting. It appears that a crosswind really can wreak havoc on where a bullet lands. I would give it another try under more favorable conditions. I haven't moved out to 100 yds. yet with the Kodiak but I will report my findings when I get the chance.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

I think the answer to that question is none of the above. Look at your trajectory below. Would 9.68 inches take you off target? What if the crosswind was actually 18 MPH or 20 MPH? Play with it at
http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html. Also where was your point of impact at 60 yards relative to your last outing (windage POI)?

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

The crosswind is actually 18 mph as of now. According to that chart it should have been 6 inches off.

I did think I saw some hitting the ground underneath though. I just saw the spray of snow. This happened with several and then I had one that I could've sworehit the top of the target.

I believe that it could be many things. I just wonder if it could be because of a cheaper barrel partly. Is it worth it to get an Omega? That was honestly the gun I wanted and kind of settled for that one. I can get the Omega Z5 for 60 dollars after returning this one. Would it be worth it just to end the doubt in my setup? I would just like to feel confident. I feel more confident in my old TC than this one right now. It just seems so predictable and trustworthy. I know an Omega would end my doubt. I know it's been an up and down struggle with this one although I love the gun. It just seems so hopeless. I've tried everything. Should I give it one more chance or go for the ultimate?

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

According to that chart it should have been 6 inches off------that is whatI came up with.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

There are a number of things I would check. First the mounting blocks for the scope and the rings to make sure they are not loose. then the higth of the scope if its mounted high then maybe your bullet is still climbing at 100 and going ove the target. The quality of your gun is usually better than most in that price range so I suspect that it is something loose or a miscalculation. Lee

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Maybe someone here can back me up or correct me on this but if you're sighting in your rifle by firing shot after shot, you're warming up the barrel. A heated barrel may not put the bullets the same spot as a cool barrel. This can change bullet impact dramatically, even at short ranges. Therefore, if you've finally got your rifle sighted in with a warm barrel and you go home then days later decide to head back to the shooting range on a beautiful day and shoot some more, those bullets shot through that cooled down barrel may not go where you expect them to go! If you're going to be hunting with this rifle, you definately want that first shot from a cool barrel to be on the spot because that's the shot that you're likely going to be firing at agame animal.

When you sight in, allow the barrel to cool down completely between shots that way every shot is like it's the first shot.

Good luck

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

At 18 mph, I'm getting 11.62 drift. As far as getting an omega, do whatever you want to do. Iam convinced thatmy apex is better than an Omega with conicals as I am getting sub-MOA elevation groupings to 80 yards with the OPEN sights. Learning how the wind affects your precision and accuracy is part of muzzleloading. You can go to sst's or to shockwaves in 250 or 200 weights and reduce the windage deflection greatly. I've said this before, light weight powerbelts are a piss poor choice for long distance shooting. Most of these people claiming they got no penetration probably gut shot their hapless deer in conditions similar to the one you experienced today.

Oh and by the way, I'd consider buying your apex, I think Frontier Gander would also.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Any chance if your gun has a scope you banged it on something? One day it shoots good another it's off? Maybe you already checked your sights, I don't know. Good luck, let us know what you find out.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

This is just my opinion, but if you can return that gun for an Omega Z5 without getting to beat up on price, go for it.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

I don't know what to tell you. Calm down, get more bullets and try again. This time start at the 50 yard station and make sure the hits are where you want. Them move back to 75 yards and double check where they are hitting. From there move back to the 100 distance and see what's happening. Sometimes rifle and shooters just have bad days. I have rifles that will take the bull out almost every time. Then it seems I go to the range and nothing works for me. Why? Who knows. I just take it in stride and start from the basics again. There have been times I have even went all the way to 25 yards with some rifles.

Get shooting some kind of bullet in bulk like the XTP. You will find it much more cost effective. Better luck with the next outing. But a few outings with a rifle and one goes bad, I would not be ready to sell it. I would be ready to shoot it again.

Maybe it was the wind. If that's the case, compensate forthe wind and see what happens next time.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

This has happened to me with powerbelts and what I find is when I look for the bullet in the pile the skirt does not come off. Try spinning the skirt
on the nipple before you load it.
Redclub

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

yes i'd be interested in buying it! If you're using a scope i'd be taking that thing off and shooting open sights and see what it does. My x-150 will hold solid 2" groups at 100 yards after 6-7 without swabbing. Let me know what we can work out.

I just thought of something else. Are you using a bore brush at the end of the day to clean out all the crud or just patches with solvent? I spend atleast 6-7 minutes just scrubbing my bore on my rifles and then start running patches.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

I was using open sights guys. The PB's have shot great for me so farand I doubt if they were the problem. As I have shot the Apex very much now and have not figured out why I can't hold groups, I am gonna go and return it tonight along with some other stuff. I can get the Z5 Omega for no more money out of my pocket.I bought some junk I didn't need and can return that, the rifle, and use a $20 off coupon and buy that TC for no more cash. I think it's definetely the way to go. I would like to clarify that I do not think that your Winchesters or CVA's are junk, I just think that they are a bit lesser guns than the TC's.

I probably gave up on the Apex too soon but it's really not about that. I just want the absolute best gun for my money.I know that if I don't get the Omega I'll wishI did later. For 60 extra dollars, I see no reason not to go for it. Why not get the better warranty and resale value as well as a name I completely trust? It seems logical to me. I'm sorry if I let you down by giving up so fast but I can tell it's not gonna quite make me happy enough. If I start shooting bad with the Omega I'll know it's not the gun[8D]:)--jk. Thanks for all your help guys. I've made up my mind. Sorry frontier gander, you'll have to find a different one. I'm returning it tonight.

Do you guys blame me for getting an Omega?

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Heck no. Your first statement says it all. If you remember when you asked for advice on what to buy, I told you to get the one you want, period, (not to mention I think I told you to avoid the sidekick). It's your rifle and you have to live with it. Since you originally said you wanted it the most, you should have got it in the first place.

Even so. Don't expect shooting in an 18 MPH crosswind with the Omega and a 245 PB will be any different. Had you bought the Omega first, this would be a thread about T/C junk.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

i offered you $180 + the $20 off coupon, thats more than what you paid. Personally im thinking that this was all a set up to put a product down and act like you had it all along. Hell, i'll go $190 + the $20 off coupon. Either gun you buy, its not going to fix itself. I offered to have you send it to me so i could shoot it and figure out whats wrong or if there is even anything wrong. So im not buying this story. Let me know about that $190 + the $20 off card.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

I think you gave up on the first rifle to soon. Even though I own a Z5 and it seems to be a great rifle Winchester does not loan it's good name to crap so you probabally had a fine rifle to begin with.

You never gave the rifle a chance and expected it to behave the same at 60yds as it does at 100yds with only from what I can glean from this thread one box of bullets. The gun isn't even broken in at this point, preferred cleaning methodes developed or anything.

Good luck with the Omega but be prepaired for the same results till you have it tuned in.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

F.G.

I don't think it is that at all. It's buyer's remorse.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Check out the 3rd post on this link
http://modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5195

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Not so fast. It is a hit or miss proposition to get an Omega to shoot conicals well. Mine doesn't and I have been trying new things for 3 years. I finally had to go back to pryodex and shoot powerbelts, but it will not shoot full bore conicals worth a hoot. Shoots some conicals with an 8 inch group at 25 yards.

Even sent it back to T/C. All they did is shoot sabots through it and say it was fine. Unfortunately, you can't use Sabots in Colorado.

I am not the only one this has happened to so don't think that getting an omega will solve your problems. It may or may not. I would work with your gun some more on a clear calm day and see what happens.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

todb,

I don't have an account there yet. Can you paraphrase what was written there?

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

i feel that its the wind that knocked him off so much, you can never guess wind mph. Its like trying to throw a football accuratly to the north against 18-20mph wind blowing west, you have to shoot and practice to get an idea where it will hit. i feel that if you do not have the patience to try to work things out with this one, then muzzleloading is not your sport.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Pglasgow

Here you go un-paraphrased... Big 6X6 wrote this I think he is a more than fair person and very knowledgable... just my thoughts

Quote:

---

I have to admit but I've owned a total of four, two .45s and two .50s. The first I bought was a .45. It wouldn't shoot. I mean it wouldn't shoot an 8 inch group at 100yds! I sent it back and they sent me another. Same results if not worse. I tried 225gr/275gr Powderbelts, 200gr SSTs/XTPs, 195gr Barnes Expander...90-100gr Triple Se7en. No luck. Sent it back...they replaced IT with a .50cal Apex. No luck, same results. We're taking 8-10 inch groups here. Replaced IT with another .50cal and I sold it without shooting it for $225.00 NIB, lost my BUTT but was glad to get it! It's too bad because it was one great looking rifle, good sights(I mounted a scope of course), and a really nice stock.

Okay there's my story...I HAVE heard of a few that did shoot. Do you have a scope mounted? Everything good there? I too would start out with some XTPs or Shockwaves. Start with the 250gr .452 XTP or 250gr Shockwave and use 90-100gr ffg Triple Se7en OR two pellets, Pyrodex or Triple Se7en. If THAT doesn't group try 200gr Shockwaves with the same charge. In my experience if it doesn't group with that, it probably won't group. Be sure and spit-patch between shots and don't get your barrel TOO hot.

---

_________________
Chuck

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Txhunter58,

Why don't you give T/C another chance to resolve it. But before sending it make sure someone there knows what it will take to gain your satisfaction. If you feel its the tight spot in the barrel, ask them for warranty replacement on grounds of defects in workmanship. Let them know that it will take replacement of the barrel to give you satisfaction. Maybe they will meet this demand if you request it.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Owned a total of four what?

Added: Oh Apex, well I guess he is the big cahuna. Mine shoots great so far, so does Scoutdad. Zurenics has one. teachhunt has taken a deer already. My dad has one. If the problem is as bad as he describe, there will be problems on calm days with some of ours. This will be interesting. Anyway, nothing can fix the point of impact with a 245 PB in a 18mph crosswind. I know how low BC conicals shoot in this kind of wind and it isn't pretty. One must measure vertical spread to get any idea of precision.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Pglasgow, Have you tried 20gr of corn meal with an over the powder wad on top of it? for some reason thats what it takes to get my Omega to shoot conicals [except for PB of course] Lee

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Outdoor's rifle is a shooter, atfirst it was, it wont group after 12 shots,didnt swab because its to much work, then its i swabbed between every shot and i love it now and then its,throw up my arms,i shot out in the wind and didnt hit anything. We cant figure out the problem all the time, 18mph wind is very powerful. Shooting in wind thats going west to east or the other way is like shooting at a walking deer, gotta lead it! I offered to buy it at the price he paid and then some. I think my offer was more than fair for a rifle that doest shoot forsquat and doesntoffer a warranty to me. What else is there do say or do? You can only do so much.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Pglasgow
OOPs! - forgot the title - Winchester Apex

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Lee I haven't tried that yet. I've not been out on a calm day but I get sub-MOA vertical spread at 80 yards with the 270 ballets and 80 grains BP. That's better than my Sidekick, at least as good as it. I really want to stretch out range, but beyond 100 yards I need a better bullet than a 270 ballet. I really liked how the cornmeal worked in my sidekick, so I look forward to testing it in the Apex.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

I don't know about you guys, but I could never get a good group when cleaning after every shot, however if I shot a fouling load, which was always high and right, then 3 shots I was getting good groups, then I'd clean the gun. reshoot a fouling load and then 3 shots. I got great groups doing this, but I shoot one of those cheap CVA's

Just my 2 cents.

My philosophy is I want to see how it shoots in the field if I have to reload and shoot again, which I have had the opportunity to several times. I don't know how many guys want to carry wet and dry patches adn then try to clean their gun in a tree stand all while trying to hurry before the target leaves the area.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Mike,

Ask him if he used the same scope on all of them andwhat he did with the scope after the ordeal.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

OK. Now let me start by saying I'm not questioning Big 6X6's experience with Apex. Don't anyone make my comments out as such because I just won't go their. What I'm gonna do is show everyone the statistical probability of getting four consequetive unusable barrels.Let us begin by positing that oneout of every two barrels is unusable shooter of 8" groups at 100 yards. Thiswouldmean that the probability that he would get one of them on any given rifle is 50 % or .50. Everytime he gets one he has a 50 % chance of getting a bad barrel. To calculate the probability of getting 4 in row, wejust multiply the .50 probability 4 times.

Probability 4 in a row= .5 x .5 x .5 x .5 = .0625 = 6.25 %

So basically if half of the rifles have bad barrels there is onlyroughly a 6% chance of getting 4 in arow.What if 80 % of thebarrels are bad?Approximately a 40% chance. What if 30% of the barrels are bad?Less than 1%. 20 % of the barrels bad? Less than2 in a thousand. If 10% of the barrels are bad? Only one chance in 10,000. Now either a very large percentage of Apex barrels are bad or 6x6 was very, very unlucky.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Hey it's the internet take it for what it is worth. You have to look at a lot of peoples experiences then make up your own mind I have read way more bad than good about CVA/BPI so I choose to stay away.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Thats great. But you must admit it is useful to understand that the terrible thing that happened to 6x6 if very unlikely to happen to anyone else. He was just singled out. I'm not going to Las Vegas with him thats fer sure. Darn unlucky I figure and I don't need it rubbing off. As we that recently purchased Apex find out how wellour rifles shoot, we will gain a little better I idea of the likelihood of getting a 8 inch at 100 yards barrel.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

i hardly doubt all 4 of them were bad. i think it narrows down to that person not willing to try differnt powders and bullet combo's. Thats why i've stuck with pyrodex rs all these years, i dont need some higher price powder that comes out every year thats supposed to be better than the other and turns out it has a down fall that the other one didnt.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

All four of them could have been bad. Just because probabilities are low doesn't mean it can't happen. Give a large enough statistical sample, it will happen, provide a high enough percentage of Apex barrels are bad.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Pglasgow

Chuck, Big 6X6, is not just a normal BP shooter. This guy has tons of experiance and is often singled out by companies to do testing. He is the administrator of the site, Lonewolf sold it to him. Cayugad is a moderator on the site also.

He has shot, tested, most of the rifles out there. I think between him and Underclocked they probably have shot them all...

The other thing remember he started out with two 45's and several companies had problems with 45 - wrong twist rate... the first 50 he got from BPI/CVA was not a performer either and he never shot the fourth.

I would re-confirm your statement pglasgow:
He is one gentleman - I have a lot faith in would also not question...

further:

Should be three - though not four...

Pglasgow - I am beginning to think that you must be a mathematician or a statistician as many numbers as you put out... and what's worse is I believe you understand them....

mike

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Mike - I do understand them which is why I recognize that what happened to 6x6 can happen. It's this same understanding that allows me to recognize that his experience will not likely be mine, yours, or the next guys. Call me statistician, an awnry Scot, or a cantankorous Cherokee, just take your pick, I do like to understand the context of things, the likelihood of other things, and so on. If that rubs folks the wrong way, just realize, I don't mean anything personal by it.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

Frontier Gander, I apologize for not seling you the gun. I don't see why I should have when I could return it for the same price and not have to mess with shipping.

For the most part, I think I gave the rifle a fair chance. Any gun that is that inconsistent is not worth messing with. I did shoot 60 sabots through it. You can only take so much. I get fed up, I admit that.I tried AP powder as well as Pyrodex. The rifle didn't shoot the loads I liked well so I don't wanna screw with it. I tried swabbin each shot. If you remember,it never did shoot consistently.I got decent groups occasionally but it was always temporary. My TC doesn't have a problem with any load--my old one that is. I just bought the new Omega. I believe it is the last one I'll buy. I don't believe that the CVA's are horrible guns, I just think that they are picky and need much more work to find that right combo. I'm sure I could've eventually gotten itshooting fairly well. You're right, I didn't have enough patience or willpower to finish it up.

I am glad I didn't stick to that gun personally. I see the Omega and am glad I got it. It has several features I much prefer.

The trigger guard lever locks much tighter than the Apex. It doesn't open as easy but it'll have to break in eventually. The barrel and stock are basically the same as my old TC. The stock is much tougher and the whole gun is much more well built though. The less weight is nice compared to the Apex.The grip is perfectly suitable but the Apex's was a bit better. The sights on the Omega are a bit more to my taste. They are a bit easier to see than the ones on the Apex--they're bigger. The ramrod doesn't bend as easily as the one on the Apex--I know cause I have it on my old TC. I bent the Apex's ramrod once.

I am glad I chose to stick to the TC's. Why not--for 60 dollars extra? I see no reasonwhy I shouldn't have. Maybe I gave up too fast but I really have always wanted the Omega and am glad I got it now. I might as well get the one I want instead of getting it later. Good luck to all of you with the Apex. I hope it serves you well. I for one KNOW mine will now.

Ibought a good 40 sabots and will do some serious shooting tomorrow. I'll keep you posted with the results once again--if you're still interested. Thanks for helping me along guys. I know I made the right choice.

RE: Spanish junk??? Please help!!!!!
 

By the way guys. One point I should say is that I was shooting behind a windbreak. There was a line of bushes/trees stopping the wind. I just thought I'd throw that info in.