Honestly, what is the difference in most newer M/L's ?? I have a 100 dollar CVA 50 cal. It will shoot a sub 2" group (best is 5/8") three shot group all day at 100 yards. Shoots a 4" group at 150. Whats the difference except the barrel length? I mean my brother in law brags about his Encore , but I shoot a better group?

I'd like to really know what the real difference is, as I am thinking about purchasing the CVA Pro Optima with the 29" barrel.

The difference is the way the rifle is tested for one thing. Thompson Center, Knight, and a few other companies put their barrels through pressure tests to prove the barrel is safe with the manufactured recommended loads. Meaning they barrel will not blow up under normal manufacturer recommended loads.

My understanding is, when dealing withCVA/ BPI actually, there really is no way to determine what the "safe" barrel pressure rating should be. When youspecifically ask them about barrel pressure limits on the phone they respond.. they are safe. Nothing more then that. Ask them if they even test the barrels and see what they tell you. Yet if you go by the barrel pressure reading on the barrel of the BPI rifles, technically a number of different loads you shoot, surpass that barrel pressure rating. So the first issue would be, under certain conditions, the barrel says they are not safe, but the person on the telephone tells you they are.

I do not have a problem with BPI warranties. Every time I have used them, and we are talking a number of times, they have always came through for me. All it ever cost me was shipping one way to their company headquarters in Norcross, GA. I have had to use Thompson Center customer warranty for work, once. I broke the stock of a Renegade in a hunting accident. I called to purchase a new one. They instead shipped me one for free.

What I want to say, is your happy with your rifle, don't worry about the difference. If you're happy with a CVA, Winchester, Traditions, New Frontier, and a few other brands, then purchase them. Save your self some money. The barrel issue must not, or at least should not bother you. Load them to manufacturer's recommendations. I know there are reports of BPI barrels blowing. And it was suggested some of these incidents happened when the barrel was loaded to manufacturer's recommendations. The trouble is there is little to no solid substantiated information about the circumstances and loads at the time of the incident. These incidents are handled out of court and parties involved are not permitted to discuss the incident per agreement.

If you deal in some of the higher end BPI rifles, you find the fit to finish excellent. Look at all the recent posts on the Apex and Kodiak. They praise the rifle's appearance, finish, fit, and accuracy. So something must be right there. I personally own one CVA inline rifle. It is a great shooting rifle. I shoot it all the time. It is a very accurate rifle. I do not load more them 100 gr of powder, but that is a personal thing with me for MY peace of mind.

Now we come to the idea, will a Thompson Center barrel blow? I am sure they will. If you want to load them enough to make them. Do I ever worry about a T/C barrel blowing? Every timeI load one. That's why I am so careful to make sure it is loaded to the specifications of the manufacturers. That is my safety net I feel.

As for your brother in-law's Encore that is not as accurate as your $100.00 CVA.. IMO he needs to work harder on his load or your shooting skills are better then his. Although I will say, the CVA is a good shooter most of the time and not all rifles, no matter who makes them, are perfect every time off the line.

bowhunterjohn,

IMO the difference is the quality/craftmanship, and the grade of steel used by T/C. The lifetime warranty says a lot about the companies faith in the products that they manufacture too.

bowhunterjohn

I have really tried to figure out how best to answer this question, and not cause a lot of controversy - yet try to be truly accurate.

It is obvious the biggest difference is the price between the two compainies. The other difference you should notice is that BPI also spends a lot of time trying to clone the accepted ML's that TC makes. Also remember BPI/CVA is not a gun maker company the are a marketing company. If you are a marketing company you need to market something the public really likes - well a lot of the public really likes the ML's that TC makes. Hence they will market a gun that looks like a TC but costs a lot less in most cases. Why, how are they able to make this big of a price difference?

I think are a couple of very obvious reason again...
a) When you purchase a TC you are also buying a warranty that really is a substantial thing. TC knows what this program cost them, actuaries have computed the costand this is included within the purchase price. I believe it is worth the extra for the coverage.
b) Labor costs in Spain are significantly less than labor cost here in the US where TC chooses to build their guns.
c) Environmental laws in Spain are not as much of a concern as they are here in the US again reducing costs.
d) Material costs are significantly less in Spain than they are here, again making a significant difference. Are the material an inferior quality to the ones that TC use, they certainly could be. TC has had to reduce some of their quality also to be able to compete with foriegn goods.

Are the barrels (the major component) and the concernbetter than the Spainish barrels - maybe - probably... Unfortunately we will never really know unless somebody poinies up and have the barrels tested by an independent testing facility. Which you would think that somebody would do - especially an American Company that is getting bit by the foriegn import or a safety advocate like RW and his personal mission to destroy BPI/CVA.

I once asked Doc White about his pressure testing, which was done in Utah, he did not give me pressure numbers either, just load numbers, but I believe UC found a copy of the testing report and posted it one time - it was impressive.

Cayugad, mentions, the pressure stamp on BPI/CVA barrels. The pressure stamp is placed on the barrels by a Spanish Company - The House of Elbar. By Spanish law no barrels can be shippedoutside Spain with out being testedby the House of Elbar, a good way to keep your government sponsoredproofing house in business. The fact is there is only two proofing house in the world, Spain and London, England. I have been told there is onein Honk Kong also but I have not been able to find it. It costs money to have a barrel tested - the higher the test the greater the cost. Spain has set the minimum standard by law - so what do you think BPI/CVA is going to test to - correct the minimum. Rifles shipped from the US or in the US do not have this requirement. There are testing facilities in the US but they are not government proofing house.

Your CVA product shooting tighter groups than brothers Encore might be possible, but I would think if you got your brothers Encore and worked up your load you would should the same group with his gun. Yet then again not all barrels are created equally even amoung the same manufacturer.

I would not have a problem purchasing a BPI/CVA product but as with my centerfire rifles - I have tried to purchase upscale rifles and when it comes to ML's I have progessed to the same point. You are only as good as your tools and the confidence you have in those tools - I have confidence in the TC products that own. On the same thought would I buy a TC Black Diamond or a CVA product like a Kodiac/Apex/ even a X-150 -> then any of the 3 CVA's would be a better purchase for me because of the personal perception that I have, and conversly I would purchase a Black Diamond before I would purchase the low end of the BPI/CVA line.

This has already gotten to wordy - I quit....

Cost is the biggest difference, and marketing. If you have a gun that will shoot 2" groups at 100, stay with it, unless your like me and just want something newer/different.
Chap Gleason Va

I love these kinds of posts.
Guys get on the net and try to drag down higher quality firearms because they personally won't spend the money on them. Never fails, the argument is always the same. Why should I pay 600 dollars on an Encore when I can spend 200 dollars on brand X. Funny thing is that you never hear of Encore guys bashing the 200 dollar guns. There isn't anything wrong with these guns, but they aren't even in the same league as an Optima or Encore. Most are well built and will function very well as long as you stay within their limitations.

How often do you hear about Encore or Optima users talking about how they are going to get one of the 200 dollar brand X guns?

Bottom line is that the T/C guns are better made, have a better guarantee and would probably be the last m/l a person would ever have to buy. You want a top of the line M/L, whether it is a T/C or not, spend the money. If something less satisfies your need and meets YOUR standard, buy it. If you want to go the cheap route, do that then. But, you can not compare an Encore or Optima w/ a good quality Nikon or Leupold on it to a CVA gun with a BSA.

So, if you just don't want to spend the money, ok fine.Why try to talk bad about the quality guns to make it ok in your mind?

Hank

Encore or Optima??? You must mean Encore or Omega. The Optima is the $200 gun.

Hey I wasn't bashing any gun, just asking honest factual opinions

I own a Mathews Outback, close to 700 bucks in it. I bought it because of the ease in drawing and feel. Its kinda hard to try out a gun though, maybe some store that offered this might be making a mint.

My neighbor bought a Traditions XLT with thumbhole stock. he asked me to mount the scope and sight it in for him. It felt nice, shot good. Got me thinking about buying a better M/L

I like CVA, but am open. The new Optima with 29" barrel isn't a 200 dollar gun, more like 300-400 depending on stocks and barrel preference.

Hank, its the same in anything some people can shoot, others can't. same in Golf. I golf competivly for many years. Some guys would have 3k in clubs but couldn't break 90 to save their lives. Don't take things so personal, I started this thread for some honest answers, not to start an arguement

bowhunterjohn

I can relate.... I have been shooting trap now for about 5 years (recreationally)- I break 22 with regularity - I shoot a $600 Russian Sporting Gun and some of the guys I shoot with have them $15,000 dollar guns but youknow - cause I know I could use one of them for 5 years and I would still be breaking 22 birds...

mike

I am a strongT/C supporter after purchasing my Black Diamond. I got a great deal. I could have bought a CVA buckhorn for half the cost but I just have alot of faith in the T/C name and have friends who've delt with them on warranty on stuff that probably shouldnt be warrantied. I have friends who love CVA. I considered a wolf and looked some at the new Optima Elite since its interchangable. But I believe I'll be throwin the extra green down on an Encore.I just trust it alot more. I was at the range the other day and some guy had a brand new CVA of some sorts it was an inline with a nice lookin wood stock. For about 30 trigger pulls it only struck the primer about 7 times and the guy kept askin me about my Diamond which on 20 trigger pulls sent out 20 powerbelt platinums into a 1-1.5" group. Another guy I work with has a Wolf and loves the crap out and shoots a 1.5-2" at the same 100yard range. Another guy has an inline and has had several internal component failures(cant remember what exactly). I think its kind of like with bows. It dont take a 800 dollar Hoyt Vectrix to kill a deer when a PSE Nova will for $150. But if you have complete confidents in the quality of your weapon you will be confident in the hunt.