Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

Looking to purchase a ML in the next few months. Don't want to spend too much as I will be just starting out. I have seen the CVA Wolf and Kodiak and kind of like them. Any opinions????

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

Im new here too, got a CVA Wolf wrapped under the tree ready for me. I went to Cabelas and Bass Pro web site. The reviews on the Wolf were good from the folks that have already bought them. Looking forward to being able to take mine out and shoot.

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

halvtaz

Right now the craze seems to be the Apex from Cabelas - it is a really dencent ML for$200+ there is a $20.00 dollar off cupon on the home page of Cabelas although for the $80 more you can get a TC Omega Z5....

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/common/search/search-results1.jsp?QueryText=winchester+apex&N=4887& amp;Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&a mp;Ntt=winchester+apex&noImage=0

between the wolf & the Kodiac I would vote Kodiac...

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

If you want my opinion the NEF sidekick is the best of the low priced muzzleloaders. I have one and it shoots like none other. Also it is a well made American muzzleloader. The only thing that I dont care for is the ramord but i can deal with it. hope this helps. http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/horizontal-pod.jsp?id=0027233&navCount=1&parentId=cat 20815&masterpathid=&navAction=push&cmC at=MainCatcat20712-cat20815&parentType=index&indexId=cat20815 &rid= Also you should keep your eye out because most muzzleloaders will be onsale for the next few months. (invitory sales)

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

I have read the posts on the Wolf as well. I also shot and helped sight in a Beartooth Magnum which is a Wolf under the New Frontier brand name. It shot real well, although we only shot it to 50 yards with the open sights. 85 grains of powder and a 245 grain powerbelt was very accurate.

What you will get owning the Wolf is a very functional rifle. The stock to hardware might not be the best fit, but for the price what do you expect. With the right load, that rifle will take a deer just as well as a $500.00 muzzleloader with a stainless steel barrel and fancy thumb hole stock.

There is the issue of the Spanish barrels. Whether this bothers you is a personal thing. Some people do not purchase BPI rifles strictly for that reason. Other decide that if they follow manufacturer's recommendations and load in moderation, they are not in danger. I do own a CVA Staghorn and it is a good shooting rifle. I shoot 90 grains of 2f powder and a powerbelt, and believe me, anything in 100 yards of me would be dead.

If you're an occasional shooter or someone that wants a few extra days in the woods,this might be just the rifle for you. It is a great entry level rifle for some. There will be little or no resale to the public market should you ever want to upgrade. So if down the road you want to sell it for a better rifle, well you will take a loss on your intital investment unless you find someone that knows nothing about them.

The Kodiak which I had a chance to handle at Wal Mart.. was actually a nice fitting rifle. I kind of liked it. But my need for another inline rifle does not exhist after I got my White Ultra Mag.

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

If I only had $120, this is what I would buy.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_451/products_id/34853

Here's a better pic and description.

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/eShop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=R4000

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/eshop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=R4106

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

Triple Se7en

That really is a good recommendation - not only a good starter but it will serve the purpose later as a more advanced gun... if it is a legal gun where he hunts....

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

On a different forum a person got one of them Yukons and said out of the box it shot really good. I'd have to go and search for the post to read more if he has posted. That's even cheaper then Sportsman's Guide had them for I think. That might be an excellent choice.

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

halvtaz

I should warn you because this warning will not come posted on anything you buy.... There is a real problem with muzzleloading - it is real addictive once you start you are hooked... I don't even use my centerfires anymore although that opens up a whole nother can of worms because I just went out and bought a new Tikka 300 Winchester Mag to replace my Weatherby Vanguard that I do not use any more - I just blame it on Cayugad - he doesn't mind...

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

i'd have to go with the apex over the nef.. after you buy an replacement ramrod for the nef and the $12 primer cups, you could have bought the apex with ss barrel/black stock for $199 + $20 off with rebate. Or better yet, the apex with ss barrel/camo stock for $229 + $20 off with rebate. Im hopefully ordering one today.

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

Right now I am leaning towards the Kodiak 1. it is on sale for $150.00 2. The store has a couple in stock. Looking around the area there are few stores with MLs in stock and on sale. Maybe it will drop more after X-Mas

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

halvtaz,

I was thinking the same thing and then bought the Apex. The blued Apex is being sold for $179. They've reduced the price $150 dollars. The stainless is $199, a price reduction of $200 dollars. Now that I have handled the Apex, Walmart would have to reduce the Kodiak substantially before I would opt for it instead. You are going spend many times the cost of the rifle in bullets and powder, make sure you get as good a rifle as your budget will afford.

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

Where is the Apex on sale at. Haven't seen it any stores around where I live at that price yet.

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

www.cabelas.com has the apex on sale. I think you'd be better off with the apex than the kodiak. Better quality.

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

halvtaz

Check my post on the first page - you will find the sale at Cabelas - mail order.... although again I would say if you can afford the extra $80 the TC $279 Omega Z5 blue/blackwould be possibly the better buy - lifetime warranty on everything in the gun and value we stay put for future dealings.

And in realality you can get the Omega Z5 for less than that @ other locations...

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

My local Walmart sold out of the Z-5'sat $249. I called to the one the next town over (hoping I could buy one there for $249) and they were sold out. So if one snoozes, they loozes:D.

Now that I have handled the Apex, though, I'm not too dissapointed. I got to use my cabelas points and got a stainless barrel. Its also supposed to have a lifetime warranty though I would certainly agree that T/C's warranty would probably be better served.To have gotten a stainless barrel in an Omega, I would have spent twice what I did so I guess I could trade my warranty, even though I still have one, for a second stainless apex. I just might do that if they don't run out. I want to shoot it first to see just what a shooter it is before I spend my remaining points on another. If I get another, the sidekick is going to begifted tosomeone.

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

Oh and one other thing. I would consider it "VERY UNLIKELY" that either the blued barrel of the APEX or the blue barrel of the OMEGA have greater tensile strength metal than the STAINLESS APEX. If a person is at all concerned with Spanish Steel, it would be almost impossible for them to produce a stainless alloy weaker than most any typical blackpowder rifle's with a blued barrel. For me, takes the worry completely away.

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

Just because it is "stainless" does not guarantee that it is stronger than standard american rifle barrel steel. There are possibliities for voids in any steel and stainless is just as prone to that as chrome moly steel (possibly a little more prone). I'm sure your stainless Apex is just fine and didn't mean to start another long argument but stainless is not a "magic" term.

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

Isnt moststeel imported now? I know the US still makes steel and all but mainly sell to china, exe. Finding anything that actually is made in america is suprising. As for the barrels made in spain, you dont rule out an entire brand due to one rifle coming out with a bad barrel. A lot of people keep saying they are exploders, show me a Recent incident. I have not been able to find any. hpmuzzleloading only mentions the cva apollo. Itsa thing of the past. Sure a rifle maybe explode due to the loader not doing something right, but that doesnt mean its the companies fault. I just found a picture and article on hpmuzzleloading with a young kid shooting a cva with triple 7 powder and a 400 grain slug. Its a thing of the past, move on. If you know that its been more than one style of rifle, feel free to update us all. MLkeith, this isnt for you ok? i dont mean to come off like im taking a shot at you but im interested in everyone that has knowledge of any other rifles besides the Apollo that were known for exploding.

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

I certainly doubt its stronger than a heat treated 4140 barrel. Certainly wouldn't compare the steel any ML rifle (other than theSavage)to a high powered rifle's steel. BTW. I didn't say the word american anywhere, if you check again, you will see that. My statement wasn't regarding american anything. The steel any ordinary blued "Muzzle Loading" barrel, even an american made one, wouldn't typically be as strong, in tensile strength, as weakest Stainless alloy I am aware of. I know for a fact that the stainless of both my Sidekick and my Apex is of greater tensile strength than the steel of my T/C hawken.Furthermore, I'm 99.99% certain that the Stainless Apex has stronger steel thanthe TCOmega with Blued barrel.Considering the fact that the TC Omaga is a full 1.25 lbs lighter than an Apex, I also wouldn't be surprised if the dimensional properties of the Omega would not support equal pressures with the APEX given this one caveat. The steel of the Apex must be as strong as the Omega. Since I am perfectly convinced that the steel of a stainlessApex is stronger than the steel of an blued omega, I think it likely thatthe Stainless Apex's barrel could support more pressure than a bluedOmega.

I've got no reason to suspect that there are voids in the steel of the Apex any more than I have reason to suspect that there are voids in my sidekick or hawken.

Basically, I think its senseless to worry about the strength of the steel in a Spanish made Stainless muzzleloader. I think the fear is unreasonable andserves no purposefor safety. Ifeveryone wanted to pitch inand put a Stainless Apex against a Blued Omega with an independent lab, we could put to rest the actual properties and strengths of the steels used and even blow them up.I certainly couldn'tand wouldn't argue withrealresults from people who have nothing to gain from the outcome of the science. I personally don't think that I can "take for granted" that the bluedOmega is stronger or capable of withstanding more pressure than the Stainless Apex.

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

The real problem here is not the real strength of the steel but the fact that the spanish companies or the companies that use spanish barrels have never got over the publishing of very low proof pressures, and not responding to requests for real proof pressures. They would have been better off to not list any rather than list pressures that are below the loads they recommend. Most american companies do not list a proof pressure so they are less vulnerable to criticism. A couple of problems long ago didn't help to give spanish barrels any good reputation.

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

MLKeith


You have been reading way to much Randy Wakeman jibberish.... The proof mark on the barrel is the minimum requirement set by theSpanish governement and a requirement to export the barrel out of the country. It keeps the House of Elbar afloat, a government sponsored business. We do the same thing on a lot of our products. The proof mark was never established as the max it was established as a minimum and is the least expensive to test to.

Ardessa Arms also conducts their own tests as many other firearms companies do. There is not even a proof house in America - I think the only other one is in London. The most noted testing facilityin the west is Browning Arms... Why has not someonesent one of those cheap terrible Spanish barrels to them and have it tested... if it tested bad then you would reallyhave the company by the throat. but I really don't think the soothsayers would like the results of the test.

At the same time Randy was complaining about the Spanish proof mark he was highly touting the A&H which had exactly the same proof mark - but since A&H wassponsoring him - that gun was alright.

Companies do not have to respond to the public on a lot of information.. They will respond to the proper authorities when ordered.

All you are doing is perpetuating some thing you really do not have first hand information on. In this lawsuit happy country do you not think that if there was a legitimate claim it would have been tested by now. Randy's claim is that the company is keeping them out of the court by paying off the people -belive me if the accident was that bad it would have made the courts as a class action.

Any one can blow up a gun - it is just a fool that does.

RE: Muzzle loading Wanna be
 

Right and you know I was just commenting on my sense of the stainless steel strength relative to blued barrels of all makes and manufactures. Anyway Keith, I think your opinion is every bit as important as mine and I do respect your comments. Since I've bought the Apex (my first BPI product)I'm getting over the BPI bashing. I really think its helping toget the price down onthe SS Apex and for that I am grateful.I had commented that I didn't know why my Apex had been returned to Cabelas (hadn't been shot). Now I suspect the purchaser saw "Made in Spain" and just sent it back or was told to send it back by someone.

You knowpeople on Wall Street make alot of money from people who have unreasonable and untimely fears. I'd like to save alot of money on another Apex due to similar, IMHO, unreasonable and untimely fears. I wish they'd get cheaper, I still have cabelas points but I don't have enough to buy another.