Black Jack Hill
 

I'm just wondering if anyone has experience with rounds from blackjackhill.com. I'm looking at rounds for my daughter to shoot out of her new Winchester Apex and found this site. The prices are what really have me interested. At $10-$15 per 50 she can put a lot more rounds through her rifle than if she shoots PowerBelts or Shockwaves. I know the stuff they are selling isn't fancy or high tech, but if it will do the job thats whats important.

Is there any reason for me not to try this stuff out? I am new to BP so I really don't have a super clear understanding of why I would use a Powerbelt over a Shockwave over a Maxi-ball or whatever. I do understand that a ball out of her 1:28 twist barrel isn't good. But beyond that I"m still learning. But other than that, what restrictions should I be worried about. Since she is paying for her own supplies, I want her to get as much shooting for her money as possible, without wasting her money on complete crap. I'm not the kind of guy who has to have the most expensive, newest, absolute best of everything, but I do want a quality product that will get the job done. And if she doesn't have to pay a buck a shot she'll be able to do more shooting.:D

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

damcl,

Buffalo ballets are available in 245 and 270 weights. Some discussion of them took place in the "Newbie with a sidekick" thread including links to buy them. They range from $9 to 12 dollars per box of 50 and she could hunt with them. The lower weight of the ballets will equal lesser recoil than the slugs blackjack is selling.

Roundballs are fine if you don't push them too hard. If all you plan to do with them in the 1:28 Apex is to plink and small game hunt, by all means, take advantage of the low cost of roundball. I suggested them just so you could have alot of fun at the range with her without breaking the bank. I use 20 grains and a pillowticking patch. A great load for rabbit and squirrel for recoil just little more than a .22. I'm not recommending the use of prb in her 1:28 Apex for deer hunting.

Here's some good cheap plinking loads

.490 Round ball$.10240 ballet $ .22
20 grains Pyro P $.0460 grains Pyro P$ .12
Pillowticking (cut)$.02 Winchester 209 $ .03
Winchester 209 $.03-----------------------
---------------------- Per shot$.37
per shot$.19

For the roundball, its like buying box of 20 shell for $4.00, or 50 for $10. Kinda like 22 mag ammo and has about the same energy for small game.

For the 240 ballet loadis going to recoil in the heavy Apex similar to a typical 243.

But if they are crap, by all means, ignore them. Personally, I prefer to starta youngsterwith inexpensive materials, as it is me that generally has to pay for them. I really wouldnot recommend a 350 to 500 grain conical tointroduce her tomuzzleloading and train her in safemuzzleloading practice.I just wouldn't do it.

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

Good point on the larger grain conicals. She is working toward going Elk hunting with me next season, so would need to get to that point eventually, but for now you're right, she is probably better off with something smaller that is going to be a little more comfortable to shoot. I'll pick up some Buffalo Ballets and give them a try. Thanks for the info.

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

BILL: FROM BLACK JACK HILL IS A SUPER GUY TO DEAL WITH AND HIS CASTING IS EXCELLENT.

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

I've bought LOTS of projectiles from Bill at Black Jack Hill. His casting and attention to detail is really good.And he is a great guy to do busness with. Some loads I would recommend from him are his REAL conicals and maxiball. The maxiball can be loaded with 70 grains of powder and produce some excellent accuracy. Also if you push them a little hard, they could be your daughter's future elk load. Loads I would stay away from are the Minnies. I have yet to find a rifle that will shoot them well. I make a lot of my own projectiles as well, and minnines are a hit and miss accuracy bullet. While they might have worked fine on the battlefield, I want one that I can place out at distances, not hit general area.

Ball-ets are also great shooting projectiles. I get better accuracy with the 270 grain ball-et then the 245 out of my inline rifles. Out of the traditional twists the 245 grain really shine.

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

Darin,

I think you are on the right track.

I'm probably wrong, but I don't think it is possible to waste either time or money introducing your daughter to the great sport of muzzleloading. Even while she probably won't hunt with ballets and 50 grain charges, getting 5 hours of quality timeenjoying the sport of muzzleloading with your daughter for less than $20 is as the Mastercard commercial says, PRICELESS.

I can tell you. If she gets bruised from a stout load on that first shot, it will ruin the whole first outing. Every shot, even the lighter loads, will hurt after it. And if she is anything like most young ones, you will have quite a job on your hands getting the trigger to break with her eyes open.

I hope this opportunity affords you lots of great experiences shooting and hunting with your daughter.

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

I appreciate the responses. I will definately get some ballets and have her start with those. With the positive responses to Black Jack Hill I will have to get some rounds from there as well and give them a try. At some point I definately want her shooting something a little larger than the ballet. I have no doubt that taking an elk with one is possible, but I prefer to give her as much margin for error as possible. And at what Black Jack Hill is charging the REAL conicals or Maxiballs could definately be a target round that she can also use to take elk if they work as advertised.

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

Darin,

If you read the comments on the 500 grain conicals at BlackJack hill, you will find he recommends 50 grains 2f BP to start. It will deliveraround 1000 ft-lbs at 150 yards in the elevations one finds elk in September. So heavy conicalsreally wring thump from a charge.

If you hunt the timber, as I do, then you (and she)will only need to be able to shoot 80 or so yards because you can't get a clear shot beyond that distance in timber. Still hunting elk in the timber where they bed is exciting and a good way to find them. You may also be able to call them close with cow talk or a bugle. Best to work in teams for that, putting the shooter between caller and bugling elk. I met a team of 3 hunters who still hunted in drive-like fashion combing timber each about 150 yards apart. They used their cow calls to commucicate their position so they moved in synchony (very slowly mind you). Very clever and they did harvest an elk.

Again, good luck with it.

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

One thing I want to mention.. some rifles have restrictions on the size of conicals you can shoot. At all times follow those recommendations. The 500 grain from Black Jack is all right. I shot a lot of them, but the maxiball are much more accurate.

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

Another thing about the Maxi-ball. It'llload reasonably easy, , pretty much guaranteed. You'll want to slug your barrel and make sure you order properly sized conicals if you are purchasing single diameter conicals from a custom caster.

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

You'll want to slug your barrel and make sure you order properly sized conicals if you are purchasing single diameter conicals from a custom caster.[/quote]

You lost me here. Slug my barrel?

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

You lost me here. Slug my barrel?
[/quote]

You need to know yourbarrel's land diameter. Barrels aren't always consistent for a make or model. Slugging will help you to determine your bore's precisediameter. Most folks are having them sized that size or just slightly over (one pass instead of 2 through the sizer). Cast bullets don't always come out of the mold the same. Depending on mold temp and so on. So they are sized to the proper final diameter. You need know what that is. If you don't, the bullets you buy may go down too hard and that can also affect accuracy.

I'd probrably mess up telling you how to slug your barrel. So someone who has done it should describe the process.

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

Pglasgow - Did I read that correctly that you've used as little as 20 gr of Pyro with a .490 PRB? Never heard of anyone using such a small amount...usually 50 grs or so for plinking.

Just curious, what kind of velocity and accuracy can you get with that load?

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

Hunter John,

I used 3f Goex. I wasn't fer sure just how easy BP is to get where damcl lives. With 3f Goex the MV is around 930 fps. This is a close range load. to 35 yards. As far as accuracy, if I aim dead center of a bright 1" dot, I'm going to hit it out to 35 yards. This in my 1:48 hawken which barrel is very pitted.

I've shot 5 rabbits so far this year, ranging from 10 to 25 yards, all were head shots.

I also mix 4 parts powder with 1 part compressed cornmeal, load my flask with that. Before filling the powder measure, I shake the flask to ensure its mixed thoroughly before measuring the charge. On a charge this small, I recommend the powder measure that has a sliding funnel which just help to be more consisten. If one mixes the cornmeal set the measure to 25 grains so that there is still 20 grains powder. I have been able to shoot consecutively 25+ rounds without swabbing my barrel (even once) with this arrangement. I use olive oil as patch lube and walmart pillowticking. I don't bother to carry cleaning patches or cleaning materials while hunting.
I know its a small charge but think of it like a very long pistol. I really like thisload for kids learning muzzleloading.This load would be hard pressed to develop 2000 psi. Even so its a hunting load if the right game is selected. Also it has very low report. In fact, the only sound I am able to detect is the firing of the cap. Below is chart of the ballistics.

If you want be to chrony 20 grains pyro P and RS, it wouldn't be any trouble, but I would expect pyro P to have more velocity, maybe 975 fps

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

Pglasgow - Thanks for responding so quickly. Thanks to Cayugad, I've experimented a bit with using corn meal as a buffer for my conical loads and was impressed with the increased performance...both in the accuracy and velocity depts.

However, I've never heard of anyone MIXING the corn meal with the powder, only using it on TOP of the powder for a better seal upon ignition of the powder.

What is the benefit of mixing corn meal with the powder? Are you trying to add powder volume without actually adding more powder?

Thanks again for sharing the chart...I was surprised to see the relative velocity of such a small load. I can now understand why you like this load for "teaching the young-ins." Gotta try that with the kids in my family.

Thanks again.

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

Ive never mixed the cornmeal ... interesting. I have done a lot of shooting with cornmeal as a buffer. I have recently been shooting traditional round ball with cornmeal and am real impressed with the accuracy. I've also shot some real light loads as well. 50 grains is usually as low as I go, but next time out maybe its time to experiment.

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

Lee had mentioned how the cornmeal made it easier to shoot accurately without swabbing. I also tried the fillers and found more consistent as well as elevated velocities as a result. The elevation ofmuzzle energyin the hawken was greater as a percentage increase, i figure because of the condition of the bore.

So I thought I'd test whether mixing the cornmeal had the benefit of easier reloading. I'm not the first to do it. There were observations that confederate soldiers had meal mixed with their powder, though the explanation was that they did it to extend their meager supplies. In any event I can tell you that it does make a difference.You canshoot a considerablenumber of shotswithout swabbing. In fact, I've never swabbed while using this arrangement (the first time I tried it, I accidentally left my ball starter at home so all the prbs were loaded with only the ram rod :)AND i never swabbed!)

I tried 20 grains without the cornmeal and by shot7 or 8 I was feeling the difference. The mixture I used has a considerable quantity of meal in it, 20% by volume, I've even considered using a higher percentage. I really don't know how it works, it just does keep the fowling minimized and consistent shot to shot.

Oh and Hunter John, Muzzle energy is the key factor. For a given projectile, not exact mind you, a given quantity of charge yields a given quantity of muzzle energy. I used 20 grains, and got 336 ft-lbs. Or about 16.8 ft.lbs per grain. Multiply that by 30 and you will calculate pretty darn close the muzzle energy at 30 grains to be 504 ft lbs.

But yield per grain is not a linear function. For black powder, you will find the yield per grain for a given projectile will decline as the charge increase. I can think of number of reasons which influence this but there is only so much space.

It is also true that the muzzle energy is a function of the square of the muzzle velocity. So the square of the velocity with 30 grains should be pretty close to 1.5 times the square of the velocity of 20 grains.

(MV_30)^2 = (30/20) MV_20^2 = 1.5 MV_20^2

MV_30 = sqrt (1.5 * 930^2) = 1139 fps

If I guy does not change the charge volume by really large percentage changes, he can do a pretty good job of estimating velocity changes from changing charge.

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

Pglasgow - Very interesting. Have you noticed a difference in fowling between using the corn meal as a buffer (only on top of the powder charge) vs mixing the cornmeal in with the powder charge?:eek:

This has really got me thinking. Thanks for sharing your experiences with the board.:)

RE: Black Jack Hill
 

Hunter John,

I haven't tested that, but since I used such a high percentage of meal in the mix, I think it would do a better job than the fillers I used in the past. Also when I used fillers, I was swabbing, Lee had yet to make his comments. Also do check the additions to my last post. Has a little info on predicting muzzle velocities from charges.