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Knock down power
I'm shooting the 250gr Barnes MZ's over 100grs of APP Gold 3F loose. This load is very accurate for me out of my omega. My question is how much knock down power do you think this load will have out past 150yds. I'm 4'' low at 160, just worried about how much steam that big hollow point is going to have after it gets that far.
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RE: Knock down power
this formula is the best I have found for comparing "knock down" power of muzzleloading bullets: http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July02.htm
Of course you will need a ballistics chart to tell you the remaining velocity at different distances. |
RE: Knock down power
I guess I don'y believe in knock down power as such; if you place your arrow or bullet in the right spot they are going down in about 40 yds,the same spot is good for pass through. I got 7 this year got lucky and got 2 refuge permits and a suburban permit and I still have one left on my state permit two went about 20 the rest went about 40 most were take with bow one with crossbow one with muzzle loader, I wait for a broad side shot and hit the back edge of the shoulder a couple inches above the heart where all the blood vessels come together this spot also gets both lungs. If knock down power actually worked you would drop them on the spot with out hitting the spine or brain[ my opinion for what its worth] Lee
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RE: Knock down power
The term Knock Down is kind of misleading. I've shot a lot of animals and some did drop where they stood. Normally this was because of where the bullet hit and what it shattered or broke. For instance, neck shots, spine shots, all of these areas break the animal down. You are disrupting major bone and nerve groups with these hits.
I've even had a few major organ shots where the animal dropped. Perhaps I got lucky and caught the animal at the right time with no air on the lungs, or again shocked something enough that once the animal fell, it lacked the strength to get back up. Then of course, all of us have put what we felt perfect shots on them. In fact I shot a small buck one year in the heart, I knew it. I was positive of my shot placement. There was snow on the ground and the mess where he WAS standing was incredible. Just looking at it, I knew it was dead and very close. Over a 100 yards later, walking a blood trail a blind man could follow, there he lay. How that deer managed to run that far is beyond me. The 250 Barnes MZ's will give you excellent penetration and expansion. The wound channel through the deer will amaze you. A friend shot a does at 60 yards two or threeyears ago with a 300 grain Barnes and I've seldom saw that kind of damage inside a body cavityfrom a bullet. Whether it will knock the animal over, is impossible to say. It will depend on where it hits and what it breaks down. I think the Barnes is a definite long range projectile you have there. I will looks for some ballistics on it just to see the kind of down range energy it retains... |
RE: Knock down power
cayugad,I have also had that heart shot go 100 yds year before last, I believe if you hit the heart it releases all the adrenalne in the body and they run wide open as long as they last. Since my property is covered with brush and woods I try to place my shot well enough to see where they drop but the same spot gives an excellant blood trail shooting down from a high tree stand,its always noticeable that the blood trail is on the lower exit side to. Lee
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RE: Knock down power
I guess I should not have used the words "knock Down". That wasn't really what I was asking, I should have asked if the big MZ hollow points would still carry enough steam to adequatly take down a deer at 150+yds. The buck I posted a pictue of the other day was shot in the heart at 45ydsor so with the MZ, when the smoke cleared his head and chest were flat on the ground and his butt was still in the air,he then just fell over dead. when I dressed him out the damage to the heart was VERY impressive to say the least! Sorry about the wording in my post!
ORIGINAL: cayugad The term Knock Down is kind of misleading. I've shot a lot of animals and some did drop where they stood. Normally this was because of where the bullet hit and what it shattered or broke. For instance, neck shots, spine shots, all of these areas break the animal down. You are disrupting major bone and nerve groups with these hits. I've even had a few major organ shots where the animal dropped. Perhaps I got lucky and caught the animal at the right time with no air on the lungs, or again shocked something enough that once the animal fell, it lacked the strength to get back up. Then of course, all of us have put what we felt perfect shots on them. In fact I shot a small buck one year in the heart, I knew it. I was positive of my shot placement. There was snow on the ground and the mess where he WAS standing was incredible. Just looking at it, I knew it was dead and very close. Over a 100 yards later, walking a blood trail a blind man could follow, there he lay. How that deer managed to run that far is beyond me. The 250 Barnes MZ's will give you excellent penetration and expansion. The wound channel through the deer will amaze you. A friend shot a does at 60 yards two or threeyears ago with a 300 grain Barnes and I've seldom saw that kind of damage inside a body cavityfrom a bullet. Whether it will knock the animal over, is impossible to say. It will depend on where it hits and what it breaks down. I think the Barnes is a definite long range projectile you have there. I will looks for some ballistics on it just to see the kind of down range energy it retains... |
RE: Knock down power
I shoot the Barnes 250 MZ's out of my Knight Rifles. I have yet to get a deer with them as I might only hunt a day or two a season with each rifle, but I have never doubted their ability. To knock one down that fast that he is still part way on his feet, says a lot for the projectile.. Nice shooting.
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RE: Knock down power
No such thing as APP Gold. There's APP - then there's Shockeys Gold.
If you are concerned about velocity/energy, then why aren't you using 777 powder? |
RE: Knock down power
Sorry, Shockeys Gold. I'm not asking about the powder, just about the ballistics of such a big hollow point thats all.
ORIGINAL: Triple Se7en No such thing as APP Gold. There's APP - then there's Shockeys Gold. If you are concerned about velocity/energy, then why aren't you using 777 powder? |
RE: Knock down power
Doing some basic ballistics using .206 as the BC and 1850 as the fps, the Barnes needs 1100 fps to fully expand so is claimed. Due to all of this and the energy of the projectile, I would not recommend shooting the rifle at deer size animals past 275 yards. This would keep you at the necessary fps and energy levels to still make a clean kill. Also remember, as the Barnes expands, due to the copper make up of the projectile, if folds back into numerous razor sharp edges... So if you want to shoot 200 yards, practice and then have at it.
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RE: Knock down power
Thats what I was looking for!:D
Thank You very much, Jeremie ORIGINAL: cayugad Doing some basic ballistics using .206 as the BC and 1850 as the fps, the Barnes needs 1100 fps to fully expand so is claimed. Due to all of this and the energy of the projectile, I would not recommend shooting the rifle at deer size animals past 275 yards. This would keep you at the necessary fps and energy levels to still make a clean kill. Also remember, as the Barnes expands, due to the copper make up of the projectile, if folds back into numerous razor sharp edges... So if you want to shoot 200 yards, practice and then have at it. |
RE: Knock down power
Crimson1,
This ballistics chart should be close. When you test, though, quite probable thatthere will be differences. I'd say that load is very very deadly to 200 yards on a well placed shot. Good luck with that. Lee, I think your correct. To spill an animal where it stands usually requires breaking something or a spinal shot. In theory, it is possible impart momentum to an animal. But even while an animal may catch a bullet and absorb all its momentum, it does not all go into moving the animal as much of the momentum is consumed in tissue destructionand bullet expansion. I have only seen one deer fall as a consequence (looked like it anyway, saw it on tv and I'm not sure, but I think it was hit with a ML bullet) of momentum imparted by the bullet. The bullet passed through on abroadside shotand the deer didn't seem to so much as flinch. Just started slowly drifting over until it was to far off balance to stand. Its legs were still stiff when it toppled. The whole process took like6 to 10 seconds. Was pretty cool to see.  |
RE: Knock down power
You shouldn't have any problem whatsoever. With several elk we have taken with this bullet, it seems theyexpand ideally at longer ranges. The ones we dug out of elk at 175 and 211 yards were folded out likea fan blade. The ones at close range tended to fold back against the shank and break off a petal or two- without coming apart. These were all bullets launched at around 2,000 to 2,100 fps. Overall, this is one of the most lethal muzzleloading bullets ever devised.
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RE: Knock down power
I agree, I shot a nice doe yesterday at 100yds. She was slightly quartering to me, the barnes struck her left side taking out one lung and continuing on through the liver, complete pass through. The doe was standing on top of a hill when I sqeezed the trigger, by the time the smoke cleared she had ROLLED to the bottm of the hill and was dead. This was only the second animal I have harvested with this setup, but DANG:)
I have yet to contact any major bone of anykind, but still get bang flop results! The shock factor these barnes put on deer is devasting, the internal organs that I have hit, heart, lung,liver on the 2 deer I have shot have been devasted. Not just a hole, but a massive wound channel. I'm sold thats for sure, I would recommend these things to anyone. ORIGINAL: Roskoe You shouldn't have any problem whatsoever. With several elk we have taken with this bullet, it seems theyexpand ideally at longer ranges. The ones we dug out of elk at 175 and 211 yards were folded out likea fan blade. The ones at close range tended to fold back against the shank and break off a petal or two- without coming apart. These were all bullets launched at around 2,000 to 2,100 fps. Overall, this is one of the most lethal muzzleloading bullets ever devised. |
RE: Knock down power
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RE: Knock down power
ORIGINAL: lemoyne cayugad,I have also had that heart shot go 100 yds year before last, I believe if you hit the heart it releases all the adrenalne in the body and they run wide open as long as they last. Since my property is covered with brush and woods I try to place my shot well enough to see where they drop but the same spot gives an excellant blood trail shooting down from a high tree stand,its always noticeable that the blood trail is on the lower exit side to. Lee sad,isnt it that you have to worry if your deer will be taken by another hunter..it never used to be that way but is getting more common now.. i shoot at base of neck and usually the buck drops ..behind sholder, get reay to track and possibly argue over who,s deer it is.. |
RE: Knock down power
I have a friend that shoot's his bucks at the base of the neck as you do with the same results. He swears it's like flipping a switch on their nervous system.
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RE: Knock down power
ORIGINAL: tkstae I have a friend that shoot's his bucks at the base of the neck as you do with the same results. He swears it's like flipping a switch on their nervous system. shooting behind shoulder, you are going to lose it..no one around, put it behind shoulder.. |
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