let them all rust
 

I took the old mower blade to the shop and with a grinder took it back to bare metal. I then took Birchwood Casey Bore Scrubber and wiped the metal clean of all fowling. I then took Birchwood Casey Sheath and protected the metal. I then took isopropyl alcohol and wiped the Sheath off the metal. This would be as exact to the manner in which I treat my rifles before and while hunting.



I then marked out 14 separate spots on the blade to be tested. The powders were in order 1-14

1= Goex 2f
2= Goex 3f
3= Swiss 2f
4= Swiss 3f
5= Kik 3f
6= Pyrodex RS
7= Pyrodex P
8= Triple Se7en 2f
9= Triple Se7en 3f
10= American Pioneer Powder 3f
11= Black Mag 3
12= Goex 4f
13= metal untreated
14= metal treated with Kroll Oil

It should be pointed out in order not to contaminate any of the testing areas, each area was covered with a specimen cup (lower corner of the picture) so that the flash from the flame next to an area could not drive over. Also the tested were conducted outside where it is 34 degrees, and very damp... just like I hunt in.



After all the areas were fired, I then took a Q-tip, and moistened it with Kroll Oil and scribed between all test areas ... again, to make sure no contamination for the other powder would effect the rusting properties. In #13 the metal was left bare just to see the effect the damp weather might have played on it. In #14 I wiped that area clean with Kroll Oil so that it would simulate a clean protected barrel in the same environment.

The blade was placed out in my wood working shop which is unheated. It is off the ground in a cool dry space where nothing but the powder's own chemical reactions should effect it. I will check the blade each day to note the condition of the burn marks. Since the powders were ignited at approximately noon, I will use that time frame to recheck.

Any other ideas you would like to try? I have no other kinds of powder around the house.

RE: let them all rust
 

also any comments on how the testing might be better done would be appreciated. I hope the results will answer some questions some of us have. A mower blade I should think would rust faster then a rifle barrel? Or would they rust at the same speed? Another interesting question. So let me know.

RE: let them all rust
 

Very interesting, I used seperate little plates when I did it, but I have never been able to get any Black Mag so I shall be especally interested in how the BM reacts. Lee

RE: let them all rust
 

Cayugad,

If you're not a scientist working in a lab, I think you missed your calling. I'm curious to see the results. I'll try to give my buddy a call tonight to ask him your question regarding the difference in metal of a gun barrel and a lawn mower blade.

Tom

RE: let them all rust
 

Only question I have is did you use the same amount of powder for each test strip?

Tom

RE: let them all rust
 

I did try to keep all amounts close to each other. I put the powder on a paper index card,then with a clean popsicle wood stick took the blunt end and scooped out what appeared an equal amount. That was placed against the outside edge of a clean plastic specimen cup and ignited. You can notice some of the curve of the cup in the second photo. The trouble is the wind was blowing outside and some of the powder reacted bad to the wind, but was ignited ASAP. Also surprising, I was ignited with a long nose grill lighter, and some of that powder takes a lot of flame to ignite it. I was kind of surprised how hard it was to light some of that off.

RE: let them all rust
 

Quite a few blued rifle barrels are made of a high carbon steel called 4150. I would suspect the finish of the metal would have more effect on corrosion than the type of chrome moly steel (a high polish being less prone to corrosion than a rough finish). One test I would be interested in seeing is a comparison of blued steelvs. stainless steel.

RE: let them all rust
 

Cayugad,

I talked to my buddy. He claims that there is very little similarity between the metal in a standard muzzle loader barrel and a lawn mower blade. I asked the question and he just went off. He started talking about all kinds of oxides and the heating temps and flex and what not. I honestly didn't understand a damn thing he was saying. He is a prototype builder for GM Truck chassis. He designs and builds the prototype machines that make the chassis.

In the end he claims there is little comparison.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Tom

RE: let them all rust
 

Not a problem, they should still rust at a somewhat same rate on metal. Maybe they will rust faster.. who knows. Thanks for the information,

RE: let them all rust
 

cayugad, an other one [which I have not found time for yet] is to take un burned powder add a drop of water and see how soon it rusts. What brought this to mind is some of the people that leave the gun loaded for along time at deer camp or like here where we have two Muzzleloader seasons 6 weeks apart sometimes. Lee

RE: let them all rust
 

24 hours and all fourteen samples look the same as yesterday...

The unburned wet powder can be done today. It will just be a day behind, but I will start that right now.

RE: let them all rust
 

RE: let them all rust - 11/14/2006 2:10:03 PM








showPicture("11/14/2006 2:10:03 PM",0,0,0,1796401,26)


cayugadThank you this should be interesting. Do you think that results will very much in different parts of the country? Lee

RE: let them all rust
 

Well that is a problem... being in northern wisconsin where it is damp and cold this time of year could very much effect the rusting rate. It is an interesting point without doubt. I was also thinking of light off a charge of Goex and then wiping the area with my swabbing solution and see if that stops the rust. What do you think of that idea?

RE: let them all rust
 

They wanted to know what would happen if just powder was put on the blade, and then a few drops of water added to it. So I made sure the area was clean, dry and free of oil. I then added some Goex 2f to the blade and three drops of tap water. It is labeled #15. This might simulate how a rifle would fare if loaded but moisture contaminated the powder charge.

After 24 hours, none of the samples show any real sign of rusting....

I was also going to do a flashed area and then swab it clean of burned fowling with my swab solution, but ran out of blade. I wanted to be fair with all the size of the samples placed.. so I will have to leave it as it.

RE: let them all rust
 

The idea of burning it off and wiping with the swabing solution is a good one it might give us a idea of how soon we have to clean after field cleaning during hunting. Lee

RE: let them all rust
 

48 hours.. I was surprised that none of the sample really show any rust. Perhaps it is the metal of the blade VS an actual rifle barrel. So far, I am sure I could clean the burn marks off and not have any rust or damage in the areas....

The Pyrodex has been a real suprise to me... I really expected to see the start of rust.

RE: let them all rust
 

I cut upan old douglas 54cal muzzle loader barrel that I replaced for a fellow; it was 4 days till the first visable rust and I lived in the missippi river valley at the time. I think that when the powder burns under pressure it forces it in to the pores of the metal which might cause it to progress faster once it starts. Lee

RE: let them all rust
 

Well its the third day of this experiment. I have not really saw anything in any of the samples that would worry me yet. Although it does look like the Pyrodex is starting to change color and the Goex grains are turning white underneath them. This might be the start of something. I wish I had made a second sample of all this and brought it in the house where the heat could effect it...

RE: let them all rust
 

The pressure is something I didn't think but I bet Lemoyne is right. I wonder how you could replicate the pressure in an experiment like yours. Interesting!

Tom

RE: let them all rust
 

well there is really no change in any of the samples from yesterday. Still a very slight coloration in the Pyrodex and the Goex is kind of white under the grains, but nothing that would concern me...

RE: let them all rust
 

Day 5 still not a drastic change from yesterday. It has to be something to do with the steel being used in the test.. I really would have figured to see some serious rust by now. I might have to look and see if I can find some barrel grade steel.

RE: let them all rust
 

Cayugad,

I just wanted to say, that my hat is off to you for doing this experiment and sharing it on here with us.

You're a good man!

RE: let them all rust
 

Day 6 - #6 & #7 are showing signs of orange tint under them. Checking my list I see they are Pyrodex RS & Pyrodex P. The other colors all look about the same.

RE: let them all rust
 

Day #7 and the pyrodex is getitng a nice color to it, but so far there seems to actual metal damage to it. The other samples are doing fine. The real surprise is the black powders. The way people talked about them, you were almost worried about just shooting the stuff in the morning and then not getting home in time to clean the rifle.. Myth busted there..

RE: let them all rust
 

We need a myth busters just for guns and hunting gear! Anybody want to start a show?

We need to work on a sponsor list. lol.

Tom

RE: let them all rust
 

So what are they like now? This is a very interesting test, very informative.

RE: let them all rust
 

some of the black powder is turning a shine under the grains, and the Pyrodex is just getting more red, but the other powders have not changed. I was kind of surprised by this test to be honest. I thought for sure there would be rust all over that blade by now.

RE: let them all rust
 

Looking forward to your final results!

(Could it be that some remnant of the SHEATH is in the pores of the metal and still providing some degree of protection to the blade despite your having cleaned the metal off with alcohol?)

RE: let them all rust
 

That is possible, butI was very careful about wiping the blade off real well... I personally think it has something to do with the kind of steel the blade is made of. I really expected much more activity with the powders by now..

RE: let them all rust
 

judge for yourself... still color showing in the Pyrodex Samples. But look close at #10 & #11 which are APP 3f and Black Mag 3. Do they look like they are starting to show, or is the photo just playing tricks? They do not look all that different to the eye...

RE: let them all rust
 

I wonder if pressure or climate coditions enter into it? I did the ones with short pcs of rifle barrel by welding them on to a plate and puting 1 inch of powder with a ball on top set it off with fuse through a small hole showed rust in 4 days. Lee

RE: let them all rust
 

Yes. Maybe they need to make ML barrels out of that kind of steel!

RE: let them all rust
 

I checked the blade today and it really has not gotten worse for the most part. I think I know how to speed the process up, but the question would be how fair is that. I would put it in the garage. While still dry, it gets much more humid in there and I think that would set this stuff working faster.

I had a rifle in the workshop over night and took it out this morning and shot it. There was a finger cot over the end of the barrel I forgot to remove last night. You could not believe the rusting that took place under that finger cot. Needless to say I wiped it all off right away, but this blade sat out there for over a week with little or no change and that barrel changed over night.

Perhaps I need to get an old barrel and repeat all this experiment again. For my own knowledge.

RE: let them all rust
 

Cayugad,

Could there be any issues with the rusting mainly occuring in between the grooves in the barrel and since you testing on a flat surface it may not stick on enough sides to cause rapid rusting?

Could you run a saw blade over your areas to create grooves for the powder to catch?

Also maybe fire some more powder over each of the surfaces to see if maybe there needs to be more trials?

Just a thought?

Tom

RE: let them all rust
 

December 6th, I checked the blade. I think the movement to the other building really started something. Pyrodex is rusting and pitting as is Goex 2,3& 4f. A surprise is the Black Mag 3 is showing pitting is appears.

The surprise is the Swiss and KIK powder are not rusting as bad as the Goex. Must have something to do with how they make the powder.

RE: let them all rust
 

What about the Control? How do you like the KIK in your rifles?

RE: let them all rust
 

The control area is fine. As for KIK it does seem to shoot very clean and with good power. I only bought a pound of it. I wish I had bought more as this stuff is indicating to be a good powder.

RE: let them all rust
 

This summer or spring I am going to order some powder. If I go through Grafs I will get some Goex and Graf powder. If I go through Powder inc I will try Goex and KIK.

RE: let them all rust
 

I think most of the type blades you are using are made from steel with a high boron content and heat treated.
While there are a number of different steels being used for different gun barrels Idon't thinkany are heat treated
as this would cause problems with straitness. I am suprised at the different results but after stoping and thinking about itbecause of the way they are used it makes sense the as exposed to moisture as mower blades are they would be alloyed to resist rust, Lee

RE: let them all rust
 

that's exactly what I was thinking the other night.. the steel has to be different or every time you mowed wet grass the thing should in all respects start to rust off the mower...