Good cheap ML
 

What is a good cheap muzzle loader to buy?
How is the CVA Wolf for $179.00?

Any other suggestions?

RE: Good cheap ML
 

i think cabelas sells the cva wolf for $139, Im going to be buying my nephew one for christmas and get him into hunting.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

Bird Hunt Dog

cayugad found this one...

http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5019

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/eshop/10Browse.asp?Category=Muzzleloaders%3A+Yukon+Brop% 2DBreech+Action+%28In+Lines%29

RE: Good cheap ML
 

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=298018 This is where I first came across the Tradition's Yukon. I know nothing about the rifle, but it appears to be on the line of the Remington Genesis from the pictures, for a lot less money.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

I have a CVA wolf magnum, bought it at wallmart last year for $130.
I am very happy with it so far.
Happy shopping, we all need more guns, right.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

Can't speak to the Wolf, haven't shot it. I've owned two CVA: Staghorn and Buckhorn. Both are good, the newer one is excellent. It is accurate, with a very good trigger. I've killed three deer with it this year. Got it for about $75 post-season sale last year; you can get them for $99 at Walmart, I think, now.

Load it up with 90gr powder and 240gr XTP, and go kill deer.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=null-cat20815&id=0027233215447a&navCount=2& podId=0027233&parentId=cat20815&masterpath id=&navAction=push&catalogCode=XG&rid= &parentType=index&indexId=cat20815&has JS=true

RE: Good cheap ML
 

As I've already stated, I think the Traditions Yukon is the Remington Genesis with a different name and some cheaper stuff. The Genesis is made for Remington by Traditions. I recommend the NEF Sidekick over any of those though. That's my opinion. It's a much better gun for the money.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

Im for the H& R Sidekick (NEF) I own one, the price isfair and the gun is amazing for the price...AMERICAN MADE too.
No offense to anyone who owns a CVA but the Sidekick kicks their ass.
I shoot 100g. of Triple 7 pellet formand 250 gr. Shockwaves bonded.

I clean every other shot and have no problems grouping shots consistantly.
Im using mine throughout rifle season and muzzleloader season here in Missouri starting next Saturday.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

Interesting to hear. Is this personal experience? What CVA did you own, and what does the NEF Sidekick do better?

RE: Good cheap ML
 

Okay Cactus, theres nothing wrong with buying a CVA I personally like the feel of the Sidekick over ANY CVA when you pick up the sidekick it just has a good balance and a good solid gun(Walnut stock). I have looked at alot of muzzleloaders at Bass Pro and ended uptaking homethe NEF Sidekick with a 3x9 Bushnell to put on it .

RE: Good cheap ML
 

The turn off about that NEF.... Those plastic primer holders it requires. I have not found them at any of my local sporting good stores. As for the NEF kicking any CVA's ass. I think thats going a little to far :D. Or should i say, a tad bit over confident? Ive held the nef before at a gun shop and it was like my ex girl friend, A little top heavy. CVA's better ramrods will kick the asses of NEF's. As for the nef being the most comfortable rifle you ever held, Try picking up one of those winchester x-150's next time you see one. You'd love it! The palm swell is amazing and the checkering actually helps you grip it. I've never held a modern firearm that felt that comfortable. But lets not try to turn this Guys thread into a pissing match allright? Theres been way to much of that.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

Oh come one, frontier gander, I wanna piss :)

I bought the CVA Buckhorn a year ago. I'd owned a CVA Staghorn 'magnum' for several years; it shot well, accurate, and I like it. Killed deer with it. Unfortunately when it was new and I was new to muzzleloading, I let it go a few days without properly cleaning, and it rusted. I cleaned that up and shot it another two years - worked fine, but never looked as good. Then right after 2005 season the local wallymart had the Buckhorn onsale for $70-some odd dollars... ridiculously low, I thought. Compared to the Staghorn... the Buckhorn had a nicer stock - made of a kind of semi-grippy, comfortable synthetic - much better than Staghorn. Studs for swivels built into stock. It also had a better safety, smaller open area where the striker is, diff barrel contour, and a MUCH better/stronger (aluminum) ramrod with metal guides. Additionally, it had better sights (which I removed when I put on 1.75-4x32mm Bushnell Trophy scope). The trigger was 90% as good as the Staghorn's, which is a compliment; the Staghorn's trigger was very light and crisp, much better than that the Savage .270 I'd sold off (which wasn't bad).

Bottom line - for well under a hundred bucks I got a comfortable, accurate rifle. Yippee. Got me five or six pounds of Pyrodex RS while I was there, at $5/pount. I used 777 that previous season... but at the price, I switched to Pyro. It has worked very well so far this year!

My $.02 of pissin' :)

RE: Good cheap ML
 

This reply is not necessarily to Cactus, his just happens to be the last post in the line...

If I were given the choice of the bottom line NEF and a Yukon - I am afraid I would choose the Yukon. Not trying to choose between an American gun or a Spanish gun. I just do not fancy a NEF and the Yukon does show me some promise.

One man has destroyed the reputation of Spanish gun makers and we all or lot of us swallowed it. This one man attacked CVA then inluded Traditions, and or any Spanish gun - but the early Austin & Hallecks which had the same barrel were OK. Money is/was his motivation.

The Yukon is a much more modern gun with better lines. I honestly can not say it shoots well because I do not have one but to condem it just because is is Spanish is not the way to go.

Buy American - a really good policy but today with the disappearance of the middle class American you can not always afford to buy American you, I, have to look at the best value. Again I have not done my homework so I can not say the bottom line NEF and the bottom Yukon are any better than each other but Traditions has had a lot of good guns.

Also remember the Traditions Yukon and the Remington Genesis are contracted from Ardesa Arms. Neither Remington or Traditions build them, and in Europe Ardesa is a well respected company.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

LOL! i know what you're saying. CVA sent me a staghorn .50 as an replacement for my cva blazer that i broke and they sent me that due to the cva blazer no longer in production. That was a fun shooting rifle. I only shot it around 20 times for fun but sold it when my new winchester came in. No need for 2 inlines, plus the winchester was easier to take down. I just thought the comment about NEF kicking any cva's butt was a little out of line. Not all rifles of the same brand and caliber will shoot the same. As for powder, Ive only used pyrodex since the first day i started muzzleloading. I used to LOVE my inline but now that i bought a flintlock, theres nothing sweeter than seeing that huge flash and the crack of the rifle going off and seeing a buck flip straight onto his back, dead. Im hooked on flintlocks!

RE: Good cheap ML
 

I dont think my comment on the NEF Sidekick kicking the CVA's ass was out of line it was a simple opinion....I dont condem anyone to hell for not owning a NEF I just stated an opinion that might have leaned tobeing a bit cocky, HOWEVER when I break out my Sidekick with 100gr. of triple 7 and put a 250 g.bonded Shockwavein it, I have no doubts.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

You have no doubt of... what? Correctness of your purchase? Superiority of your rifle? Deadliness of your load? You ability to hit the target?

I've slowly learned that the ability to find the deer, then HIT the deer well, is the biggest factor in hunting success. A dirt-cheap sabot bullet and 80-90gr of Pyrodex is a 99% solution, if you do your part. I'm convinced of that... it's just fun to talk about gear, but they don't matter all that much, IMHO.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

All the above mentioned....

RE: Good cheap ML
 

"One man has destroyed the reputation of Spanish gun makers and we all or lot of us swallowed it."

Are you referring to Chuck Hawks, Sabotloader?

I do not know if the CVA's are more accurate than the NEF because I haven't shot them. I can tell you one thingI do know though. The NEF is by far better built than any CVA, excluding the ramrod. I've held the CVA Wolf and NEF Sidekick and would go with the NEF simply because it is built so much better. Those are my opinions and don't want to argue.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

Bought a CVA Wolf afew weeks ago. Shoots well and produces good groups at 100 yds. Great guns for the money

RE: Good cheap ML
 

I do own a $89.00 CVA Staghorn Magnum. .50 caliber, nickel barrel, RED DOT scope, three ignition systems, excellent trigger, fiber optic sights (that broke the first day on the range) and black plastic stock. So I guess I could label the rifle as a "cheap muzzleloader." While if you compare the barrel/hardware to stock fit it will never compare to my Black Diamond XR. They are like day and night. There is a spot on the CVA in the fit, like my Dad used to say, big enough to throw a cat through. (Not real kind for the cat by the way) Also the Spanish barrel while it concerns me, I've shot the rifle a great deal, its held together just fine, and shoots very accurate. I do not shoot magnum loads out of it, and have no desire to do so. But I seldom shoot magnum loads out of any of my rifles. I just do not find it necessary.

What I am getting at is, I do not compare the CVA Staghorn to any of the other rifles and declare, WOW, this thing is really junk. When I purchased the rifle I knew it was an entry level rifle. I fully expected the hardware to stock fit to be not perfect like my $200+ Black Diamond. I think anyone buying these low end rifles are doing so with the same expectations. If not, they might be in for a real let down.

It is an entry level low cost rifle. If people are not concerned about all the stuff they read on the Internet about Spanish Barrels, etc. The low end rifles are a very cost effective way to get into the sport and see if you like the challenge. Actually for someone that hunts an area where there shots are not extreme, and they only hunt a couple days a year and then put the rifle away, this might be the best value on the market. The accuracy of these rifles are more then acceptable and in many cases outstanding. This is usually the because of a person taking the time to work the rifle load, or getting real lucky. Personally I like shooting the rifle. The main thing is, rifles like this get people involved in the sport. I see no need to compare anything. I just enjoy.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

All CVA (BPI) & Traditionswas asked to do was answer a couple of questions -- that other ML gun manufacturers like T/C, Knight and Austin-Halleck politely answered when questioned.

Both refused - so both now must carry the baggage associated with being an ML manufacturer that may be legally hiding something that makes their guns inferior to many others.

So since that Chuck Hawks barrel-questioning remains for all to exhibit, it's never been challenged in any court to remove it. So that makes it look like what has been written & suggested may be true.

I'm done here.... just thought I would add my .02 cents

RE: Good cheap ML
 

I'll go out on a moderately thick branch and speculate he's talking about Randy Wakeman, a self-promoted Expert & CVA Hater.

I have no financial interest in CVA - and I know that owners of rifles can be bad judges of their relative merits, since there might be the tempation to justify one's purchase - but I'm very satisfied with the CVA Buckhorn I've got (2nd CVA owned). Like Cayagud, I've owned a Staghorn, and found it to be as he reports - a capable though not very pretty rifle. After using it for four years... I was thinking about getting an Omega. Went to the store to buy one- I held it, dry-fired it, thought hard about it - then saw the CVA Buckhorn for seventy-odd dollars. Looked at it... and it seemed to correct everything that wasn't quite right on the Staghorn. IT BALANCED BETTER, and definitely had a better trigger. That it cost a hundred bucks less, sold me, so I bought it... and what a deal. Under a hundred bucks, great trigger, silent safety (easier to use than Staghorn's), well-designed & comfortable stock, substantial ramrod, and and ACCURATE (as accurate as me, anyways...) - what's not to like? Everytime I kill a deer with it - or shoot a good group with cheap bullets - I'm satisfied, and become ever more convinced that Mr. Wakeman isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he.

Cayagud said, of his old Staghorn Magnum - "It is an entry level low cost rifle. " - and this is absolutely true. The GOOD NEWS is... that the 80/20 rule definitely applies in buying a ML for hunting. You certainly buy a better/nicer rifle than a low-end CVA - but you probably won't kill more deer with it. Note: I follow the manufacturer's recommendation for max loads, and feel absolutely safe in doing so. Since the title of this thread was is Good cheap ML, I feel compelled to add something for newbies: don't buy the 150gr, 200-yard hype. A 100gr powder load is a 99% solution for hunting whitetail, at least for me.

One of these days I'll get a Savage ML, just because I like Savages - I've owned two of their rifles - but I doubt I'll kill more deer.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

(This is not a reply to outdoorslover)

I own a NEF and have now fired it over 600 times. I do like it. I like it alot. Not anymore than my T/C hawken though, or any less either. Also, I am sure that I don't like it any more that Catus likes his Buckhorn.

I think the important thing is that we buy what feels right to each of us. There isn't a person here who didn't work hard to earn the money which purchased their rifle. I believe each deserves to enjoy what his hard earned money has purchased.

I'm with sabotloader on this one. For every idiot who loaded 3 pellets and left his ramrod in the barrel, there are literally "tens, if not hundreds, of thousands" of individuals who concientiously and safely shoot and hunt with rifles whose barrels are of Spanish manufacture.

My advice to anyone is to shoulder as many rifles as you can. Get one which feels rightand get the "best" rifle your budget can buy. You'll spend many times more than the cost of your rifle in powder, bullets, and primers/caps.

Let's let everyone enjoy their rifles.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

Never had any problems with my spanish barrels. Amazing what types of stories they come out with when so far ive only seen 1 cva with any major problems. Apollo. Never heard any reports of any other cva exploding. Other than people using to huge of bullets and more powder than they should. I once came across a guy shooting a traditions .50, the moron loaded up a 410+ grain greatlains bulle and 150 grains powder and hes like.. Why did my barrel explode?!! lol. Funny thing was, he was going to use all that powder and bullet on whitetails. My god, i guess people like ruining a lot of meat. 245/295 bullets are more than enough for deer size game. Im looking for a ML'er to buy my nephew and found it. Winchester is selling the plain jane x-150 for $220! You cant pass up that good of a deal and quality of rifle. Didnt TC has barrel problems in the 70s/80s with the 45cal hawken rifles and barrels exploding? could of sworn i came across that on a traditional MLing site.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

I know of someone who overloaded a CVA Bobcat with the GP 410(I won't give specifics). Did it more than once. Of course, he wasn't shooting this rifle from his shoulder. He built an apparatus from which todischarge it and did it as safely as such a test could be done in a field laboratory.He wanted to convince himself that the rifle was safe with the loads the manufacturer approves.

The nipple wasn't dislodged and the barrel wasn't bulged. His report left me convinced that there is nothing wrong with the quality of its Spanish steel.Seemshe got a very good one, built plenty strong enough.

Even so, I suppose there can still be be problem with any particular rifle from any manufacture from defects in workmanship orinsufficient quality control. This is why I always recommend starting with lighter loads (just like with cartridge reloading) and working higherwhen breaking ina new ML rifle. Just makes sense. If thereis aproblem, its at least possible to detect it before dropping 3 pellets.

I really do think that most problems result from lack of respect of the dangers. Specifically, the failure to use a safe loading regimen. I would wager that most burst barrels are the result of leaving a ramrod in the barrel upon discharge.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

yeah i've seen people just rammering on the ramrod to seat their bullet and then firing it off. That traditions the guy was shooting wasnt even made for magnum charges and he figured it was. A few months back you may remember my thread about me forgetting to take out my ramrod and firing it off. Son of a gun that winchester has a hell of a barrel lol. 90 grains pyrodex RS, aluminum ramrod, 385 grain great plains bullet. I've never been kicked that hard by a rifle. Funny thing is, that damn bullet and ramrod shot 2" patterns from eachother lol. I checked the barrel/ stock out, everything was perfect. Thats why im considering buying my nephew the x-150. Rifle is built solid. And a lot of problems ive noticed with people is that they dont read their gun manual or know the differences between powders and load a 150 grain loose charge of app and something goes wrong. I personally have never used t7 or app, black mag. So i have no clue what charges would equal 120 grains Pyrodex RS. But if i were to buy some, im not just going to load up a charge and hope its right, im going to be asking. my traditions kentucky rifle shoots 110 grains fffg goex with no problems at all. My 2 most fav Bp rifles i own are those 2. I think my nephew will like an x-150 for christmas, he liked mine.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

Its nice to hear you'll be introducing your nephew to muzzleloading.Has he been shooting high powered rifles already? Not knowing his age, be sure you teach him a safe loading regimen. Some tips.

1. Work out a load for him which has similar recoil to rifles/shotguns he is already shooting.

2. Wrap some masking tape on the ram rod and mark two witness marks on it with permanent ink. One where the ram rod is resting on the powder without the bullet, and one where the ram rod is resting on the seated projectile. (Use only one type of projectile and one charge volume while he is learning). Show him how to check to prevent double loading.

3. Don'tshoot the bull with him while he is loading. Let him concentrate on the procedure without having to carry on a conservation.

4. If you observehim make a mistake (load powder twice, load projectile without charge, load projectile twice, load powder over properly loadedprojectile),prevent him from priming the ML, discuss the danger of the mistake, have him use his witness marksto verify the loading mistakes, then walk him through thecharge removal method in the manual.

I do remember when you discharged the X150 with its ramrod in the bore. Since everything worked out OK, I found myself chuckling as you described the recoil. But it was a very dangerous situation, would have been much more dangerous with 150 grains of pellets. Hopefully, with concientious training, your nephew may never have to experience that.

Good luck, Phil

RE: Good cheap ML
 

You all know that when different companies contract for guns to be built they set the specs. So in my opinion all spanish barrels are not made equal. Perhaps some of these co. are doing some checking to be sure those specs are meet? Do we really know? Lee

RE: Good cheap ML
 

I think that's a fair statement. They aren't all designed for 3 pellets as I understand it. Each has different dimensions (shape). So I think this is a given.

It seems to me, that someone must be doing some checking. I have the sense that, if no one else is,BPI is doingthe checking. Does a retailer or distributor have the responsibility to test the manufacturer's compliance with specs? Maybe, but I think not. I think this rests with the manufacturer. Might be wrong about that though ( but if I had a gun shop i wouldn't want to be sued by someone because I sold a CVA product)

For my part, I wouldn't fear whether CVA, Traditions, etc. are testing. I would concern myself with whether BPI is providing tested products to them.

Phil

RE: Good cheap ML
 

The NEF sidekick, CVA Kodiak, Winchester Apex 209 and CVA Optima are all decent yet 'inexpensive' muzzleloaders. I'd stay away from magnum charges and huge bullets, though(if you're ever tempted :D).I'mwith Catus on his post: the CVAs and Sidekicks are about equal MLs. My experience differs from the 'Sidekick kicks their ass' comment.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

I agree with the list above in regards to a good cheap ML'er. Although I think the Apex is of a bit higher quality than some of the others on the list.

6 of the 7 ML'ers I have are BPI products. I have no concerns over the quality of the spanish barrels on any of them. Why, because I did some testing to verify. I am the one who tried to blow up a Bobcat barrel to see what it would take. It takes more than I had the heart to put it through. I still use it for a fun plinker gun. Right now I am looking for an inline barrel to do some testing with. If any of you know where I can get a Hunterbolt/Magbolt or Optima barrel for cheap, I would appreciate a PM.

A gunsmith friendhas told me more than once that it is difficult to "blow up" a ML'er barrel unless you short start a projectile or load with smokeless. He's told me stories of nipples blown out (using smokeless) but no damage to the barrel. He's told me of loading a barrel 50% with powder 50% with PRB's and no damage to the barrel. He even told me of some guys that were using 100gr of BP and a PRB loaded into a piece of 1/2" electrical conduit pipe and it didn't "blow up" even after many shots. He has been working on BP guns for many years and has seen split barrels and the like but they all were the result of incorrect loading such as stated earlier.

Think about it. 150 years ago the barrels were made of cast iron or low quality (by todays standards) steel. Many of the mountain men would load heavy loads for bear, loads that we would call magnum or hotter today. I read somewhere where some would load 150gr or more of BP and double balls when they really wanted to hit something hard. The quality of the steel used in todays firearms far exceeds what was available back then yet we are still using loads that are similar to what they would use. This tells me that the amount of powder a ML'er can efficiently use hasn't changed all that much but we can safely say the quality of the barrels has improved. This means that the safety factor has also improved over the older barrels. What it doesn't mean, though, is that you can make mistakes in loading (short starting, etc.) and expect the barrel to survive. It doesn't matter what make of barrel it is, it can be "blown up" if it is loaded incorrectly. That includes the Savage.

I do not recommend that anyone exceed the max loads established by the manufacturer and do not recommend doing any proof testing unless you have taken the time and steps to do it in a safe manner.

That's my 2 and 1/2 cents, take from it what you will.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

"Think about it. 150 years ago the barrels were made of cast iron or low quality (by todays standards) steel. Many of the mountain men would load heavy loads for bear, loads that we would call magnum or hotter today"

Exactly! I have a book and the guy was doing testings on the hawken rifles and he was using more charge than todays 150 grain mag load. Im looking at it now and he was shooting a .53 hawken, prb, 187grains ffg powder. I personally have used more than 150 grains powder in my winchester just to see how it shot and i stopped at 170 grains pyrodex RS. I even have a video of Roger Raglin saying he is shooting a " i forget what bullet weight"700ish grain slug with 200 grains of pyrodex. He was hunting cape buffalo.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

F.G.,

I would point out that your "experiment" with 170 grains loose Pyro and an unknown projectile weight differs completely from the experiments to which i referred. Unless you worked out means to discharge the rifle so that you and others could not be harmed.

A am sure that Roger was not using a .50 cal rifle. How much pressure for a given powder charge and bullet weight depends on the bore diameter.

. . . .

David,

Your gunsmith friend has a wealth of knowledge. Seems it takes a barrel obstruction to burst a barrel (short start condition). I would think a ramrod could too, but your post causes me to question that. I would be interested in knowing if those that burst were known to be short started before discharging, i.e. , the bullet/ball lodged tight in fouling while being loaded with the operator aware.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

"Think about it. 150 years ago the barrels were made of cast iron or low quality (by todays standards) steel. Many of the mountain men would load heavy loads for bear, loads that we would call magnum or hotter today"

I've read books that also state this, but in addition to better barrels we'd also have to assume that the quality of powder is much purer (or better) than it was a 150yrs ago. I'd say just based on this assumption that our mag load of 150 would prolly be just about equal to the heavy loads the mountain men used. Not to mention that most mountain men prolly used guns that .54 caliber and above which can handle heavier loads and keep lower pressure in their barrels with heavier bulletsthan a .45 or.50 caliber(which are the two most popular inline calibers). stick to the manufacturers specs. be safe. Those are my thoughts.

RE: Good cheap ML
 

Frontier Gander,
For most BP guns, the practical limit of 2F powder that they can ignite with normal weight projectiles (under 500 or so grains) is around 130 +/- grains. Anything beyond thisends up adding weight to the overall load and not really contributing much to the velocity or pressure of the shot. Pelletized powders however can burn completely under such conditions most of the time. Also finer granule powders (3F, 4F) burn quicker due to the Higher weightfrom better compaction and increased surface area that is exposed to the flame for a given volume of powder. It's kind of like a jar of sand vs a jar of pebbles, The sand weighs more because you can fit more in the jar with less air space between the granules. I'm sure most everyone knows this but I thought it might help explain the differences in powder for those who may be new to the sport.

Pglasgow,
I will see if I can get that information if he knows for certain. Do note however that the comment was difficult, not impossible to blow one up. There is always the possibility of an unseen structural flaw as well as other unknown problems that can cause a bad day while shooting.

Indy,
I agree pretty much with your comments, especially the last one. The 53 cal mentioned in the above comment using 187gr of powder would be very close to equal with a 50cal and 150gr of powder, I base that on the 20% difference in the max listedload for my 54 and 50 of the same make and model. The difference in the powder strength howevermay not be as big as some would think. The mid 19th century has been claimed to be the hayday of BP development and the powder from that era was some of the best that has been produced up till now. I wouldexpect thatmodern powders are more consistent on a lot to lot basis but I doubt there was that much difference in strength on average. I could be wrong on this but that is the impression I've gotten from what I've read or learned from talking to more experienced and learned ML shooters.

For the record, all my comments are based on my own experiences and discussions with others and only constitute one mans opinion. I do not consider myself to be an all knowing BP guru, just someone with an interest in a fun and interesting sport called muzzleloading.

It's too bad we have taken this "Good Cheap ML" topic so far off topic. If folks want to continue this train of thought maybe someone could start a different thread. My appologies to the original poster for this diversion.