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RE: I can see it coming already....
 

I expect you are right drache. Why is it that in Iowa centerfire rifles are not allowed anyway? Is Iowa that denseley populated or is there some other reason? I think in some states the thinking was to allow weapons that have a more limited range than rifles so as to prevent accidental hits two miles away on houses and cars and people. I guess we need to make sure the lawmakers make decisions based on good information and not on myths and wivestales. But the high performance muzzleloaders available today will more than likely cause some changes in hunting regulations.

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RE: I can see it coming already....
 

Yes, I too can see putting restrictions on new high power muzzleloaders. And I'm not sure that's such a bad idea. Drache is right, there are few places one can stand and not see a house, but the truth is Iowa is not a place for center fire rifles during deer season. Drache and I have talked about how the woods during shotgun season can be over-run with deer hunters. I won't even consider hunting first deer season anymore. I don't really even want to go bird hunting then. Now, I know even a shotgun slug travels over a mile, but I don't think we need bullets that can fly into the next county. I don't want to see this turn into a traditional m-loader vrs in-line discussion, because I own and love to shoot both. I guess asking us to use a little common sense might be asking too much. Jim

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

Let's think about the new slugs and rifled slug barrels. I've seen shotgun slugs in the store claiming 2400fps. thats faster than my inline will do with the load I shoot. I do believe at some point the powers that be will step in to limit some things.

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

I don't see states restricting or banning modern in-lines at all. A state Game Commission or DNR may take it upon itself to impose such restrictions, but not likely. Some organized lobbying effort will have to made for the GC or DNR, to inact such restriction or bans. Even then if they do the proper research, like herd study, numer of hunters applying for such permits, and economic impact of such restrictions, they may decide that such restrictions or bans may not be warrented.

If they do inact restrictions on advanced in-lines for the muzzleloading seasons, will that open the door to more restriction on other seasons? Like would they restrict the use of 80% let off compound bows or compounds all together? Would they restrict the use of slugs during shotgun season and require 00 buck as the largest round you can use?

In many of the mid-western states, they do not allow the use of centerfire rifles during deer season, but you can use 220 swifts, 7mm STW's, 300 Win Mag's, ultra mags, or anything else you want to shoot coyotes and other varmints. yet, they may restrict what kind of muzzlelaoder one can hunt with. That don't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Edited by - 1SHOT_1KILL on 01/16/2002 20:33:29

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RE: I can see it coming already....
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
With the technology and advances being made in modern muzzleloaders today, aren't we just cutting our own throats? What I mean is that blackpowder seasons in many states was instituted for the traditional hunter. With all of these new &quot;more powerful&quot; guns coming out and being used in these seasons I can see it clearly on the horizon of states eventually putting more restrictions on what gun we are allowed to use during this season.

Take Iowa where I live for example. For deer seasons we can use a shotgun, handgun (no-semi's), or muzzleloader for firearms. No rifles whatsoever. Now with modern inlines becoming more advance and having the capability to reach out to 300 yards I can see the state putting a restriction on these.

So do you think the new technologies are just steering us towards restrictions?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
as with everything, good is never good enough. there always has to be improvements,
look at the bow.what ever happens everyone can thank all the technical brains for all the modern improvements on our weapons.

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RE: I can see it coming already....
 

1shot Oregon has thier muzzleloaders restricted to no centerfire,no pellets ,loose powder only ,iron or peep only,round ball or conical with cloth or felt patches only .Its been that way for sometime now . They call it a primitive hunt and don't allow all the new technology .

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

Whether it be in-line or flint, sabot or round ball, pellets or loose powder, you still need to keep your powder dry and you only have one shot. I see nothing wrong with making smokepoles more accurate and reliable. After all, what's the end result . . . a quicker and cleaner kill. In my book, that's what we all should strive for.

. . . Rob

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

Halcon,
I guess that is why I had a phone call from a hunter from OR about 2 years or so ago, that was feed up with inefficient &quot;primitve&quot; muzzleloaders. He shot and hit 4 different bull elk with his &quot;primitve&quot; muzzleloader, at well under 100yds each. And he failed to find a single one, eventhough all 4 were hit and all 4 left a blood trail. He wanted to buy one of my custom built smokeless muzzleloader, but I saved him about $3,000, and told him to buy a Savage 10ML.

That is 4 bull elk out of the herd in a single season, by a single hunter. Now would you care to multiply that by 10-15% of the total number of muzzleloader hunters in your state? That would be an approximate representation of the number big game animals wounded, crippled, and lost by either the an inexperienced hunter, a low powered inefficient &quot;primitive&quot; muzzleloader, and/or a combination of both. I think the numbers would almost make you sick to your stomach. You can call it &quot;primitive&quot; all you want, but I call it a darn shame.

If you noticed I said nothing of one these type muzzleloaders in the hands of an experienced and disciplined hunter. In this case a &quot;primitve&quot; muzzleloader, may certainly be adaquate for the job. But are you going to force a novice muzzleloader hunter to play by your rules and standards? Would it not make much more sense to let a novice muzzleloader hunter, have the option to hunt with an in-line or sidelock, open fiber optic sights or low powered fixed scoped 1 or 2x, pellets or loose, and saboted bullets or conicals, in whatever combination that works best, so that he may gain experience and knowledge about muzzleloading. Or are you just going to hand him a flocklock, a powder horn, a hand full of patches and round balls, and throw him to the wolves, to figure it out on his own? If that is the case, the game animals are going to pay a very high price, indeed.

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RE: I can see it coming already....
 

a hunter who leaves four cripples has more than an equipment problem, he's just plain ignorant. It take a few days at the range to find out how any gun will shoot, wheather a flint or a new 06 and having a modern inline don't excuse anybody from learning its limitations just as with a flint.

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

Hey 1 shot, why don't you give us Or. muzzleloaders the name of this wayward soul, just so we could &quot;edikate&quot; him on the proper way to kill an elk. We would'nt be mean or nothin, oh our methods may be a little strict, but by the time we got done learnin&quot; him proper he would think twice before he pulled the trigger and thats for sure!!!

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

Hey 1SHOT,
4 out of 4 elk lost sounds like a bad shot to me. If you hid them in the foot they will bleed. Shoot them in the middle of the middle with a round ball with a heavy charge and you will have one dead elk. An elk with a hole thru both lungs won't go far. I like big guns with big bullets leave big holes. I am building a .72 cal. round ball shooter for my next elk hunt. 560 grain RB with 225 grains of 2F should pack a pretty good thump. Idaho or Utah is going to a &quot;Traditional Season&quot; and I think more states will follow. That will be OK with me, that way I will be hunting PRIME TIME with my patched round ball and you will be in rifle season. Just wait and see........Bruce

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

Here in NV, you can use pretty much any muzzleloader/projectile/powder combination that you want. You can only have open sights during a muzzleloader only hunt, but during an any legal weapon hunt, you can have a scope. I don't think many people in this state can hit as far as the muzzleloader will shoot with just open sights, so there shouldn't be any problems there. I don't think that NV will change its ML laws any time soon.

I am planning to apply for a cow elk muzzleloader tag this year, and I am becoming comfortable with my ML. The sights are not adjustable, so I will be putting a set of tru-glos on. It is a CVA Bobcat .50 percussion ignition. I have looked a balistics tables and have found that with 90 grains of 2f equivalent pyrodex and a 245 gr. Buffalo Ball et, this combination will have enough power that is needed to kill an elk than I will be able to effectively shoot. I will know what my limitations are, and I will settle for nothing else.

I think that the major problem with these reports of lost animals is people that don't practice and exceed their own limitations. I think that there should be laws limiting ML firearms only to a certain extent, so that people will still be able to make a quick, clean kill on an animal. That is the most important part of it all. Face it, the people of today are nothing compared to the early explorers, where they HAD to make a shot to survive, some people don't think about that and just shoot.

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>So do you think the new technologies are just steering us towards restrictions?
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It seems that with any new technologies we get more restrictions, whether it be firearms or automobiles.

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

Drache,

I live in southern Minnesota. We also are not allowed to use rifles down here. We can in the northern third of the state. Years ago it was explained to me that agricultual land, being so open, does not have the tree density to keep an errent shot from traveling too far. It made sense then. Not so sure anymore.

I posted a question pertaining to this subject on the Minnesota DNR site. It was explained quite nicely that the in-line muzzle-loader, being that he has one shot to drop the deer, is going to be alot more careful about where he is going to place that shot. Where, with even a bolt action CF rifle, there could be a perpensity to spray a few shots at a deer before a good shot could have been obtained.

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

If that is their reasoning, then why doesn't the state of MN allow SINGLE SHOT centerfire rifles for gun deer season?

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

Why, here in Pennsyltucky where I'm now living, they limit us to just flintlocks with round balls!! But, they are a little more liberal with bore diameters, permitting balls smaller than are legal most everywhere else!!

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

we are already restricted to flints, but I have heard a lot of concern that the future may bring inlines. It may depend on political pressure.

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

1 shot 1 kill,

I assume you mean a single shot CF for the muzzle-loader season. And that is a good question. Although it is something I would not want to see.

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

Wouldchuck,
You stated that in southern MN you are not allowed to use centerfire rifles during deer season, because it is the opinion of the DNR, that anyone with a bolt action or any other repeating centerfire rifle, will spray shots all over the country side, instead of taking that deliberately and precisely aimed first shot.

I am not advocating the use of centerfire rifles during the established muzzlelaoding season, just aksing a question (a little off topic maybe) about the use of CF rifles in your part of the state of MN. But, if I follow the logic of the state of MN's DNR, that only a firearm capable of being loaded with and firing one round at a time, your example of a muzzleloader fits perfectly, then could they not consider establishing a centerfire rifle season limited to SINGLE SHOT centerfires only?

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

Since we are getting off topic maybe we can go a ways with this one. I think a lot of the shotgun states would be well served with a single shot rifle too. My opinion is that some of the shorter range cartridges such as the 30-30, 45-70 35 Rem and such would work pretty good in these states.

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RE: I can see it coming already....
 

That is a good idea 1 shot, I think single shot rifles would be better all around than shotguns. Perhaps some of our legislators dont know the difference between the two though. It seems like logic and good information seldom make it to the lawmakers. A prime example is the steel shot fiasco. We need more shooters and hunters in government. The problem is that most shooters and hunters wouldnt want to be associated with that crowd. he he

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

Wow! I finally made it back!

1 shot,

That would be a good idea and I like it. I think the &quot;problem&quot; of bullet carry would still be there. There will still be the ocassional(sp) miss. And in some places around here you can stand on the ground and see a couple miles in almost every direction with nary a tree in sight. Many farm houses though.

Couple that with the fact that the Minnesota DNR is stingy about the number of new seasons they want to open and you can see you're gonna get shot down before you get to the end of the run-way.

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

Hi,
I'm new here, and would like toss in a few pennies.

One thing that most people forget when it comes to game laws is what is/isn't tradtional in a region. This can also apply to what weapons are used. To use the example of shotguns only in MN. It has also been legal to use handguns in slug only zones for a few years now. But most still don't. Why, because shotguns are what we grew up using. And many would oppose a change for that reason.

RE: I can see it coming already....
 

The only thing illegal here in DE is &quot;Smokless Powder&quot;.This came out of F&G shortly after the new Savage was introduced.
Don't know if its a safety issue or they feel its pushin the limits on Muzzle Loadin.

Off Topic - But,
I like the suggestion on single shot rifles.Having been weened on Center Fire for Deer,I think Shot Guns are a panty waste for Deer hunting.It ain't never gonna happen in this old state!