Pennsylvania
 

Does anyone know if PA plans on allowing in-line muzzleloaders any time soon? I saw they now allow them for the early doe muzzleloader season, but it's still just flintlocks for the late season. I think PA is just too behind the times with muzzleloader hunting (amung many other things). We also need a longer season for muzzleloaders.

RE: Pennsylvania
 

You just answered yourself,they have an earlier season where all muzzleloaders are legal.
I think you can expect the late season to stay the way it is. At the most you may see more accessories become legal. (peep sights, etc) but not a change in the type of ML firearm.

It would only be "behind the times" if they stayed with only 1 season which only allowed flintlocks. But since there is a season wherepercussion and inlinesarelegal.........
(Think of it this way. Do you allow anything but bows in archery season? Heck, why not allow crossbows, laser sights, electronic tracking devices, etc, etc, etc, it is archery stuff.)

If you absolutly want to harvest a buck with an inline, use it during rifle season, there are no laws against using it then.


...... And I have to say, there is something nice about having a "primitive only" flintlock season. Nice to think that everybody out in the woods is using some old-style smoke poles. If I were to change anything I would only ask that they allowed some better sights and/or peep sights, and maybe included either percussion and maybe also wheel-locks n' match-locks (the locks used before the flint). But keep modern inlines and others out of the one season and in the other.

RE: Pennsylvania
 

Being, "behind the times" is what muzzel loading season (was) all about. It's a darn shame they butchered the early season and I think the later season will slowly be erroded into something other than primitive. Not looking to start a war here but I spent alot of time in PA and just hate to see their ML'r season being turned into another time for the Orange army to kill another deer.

Doug

RE: Pennsylvania
 

Maybe I just have a different idea of what the muzzleloader season IS about. Whether flintlock or in-line, you only get one shot... That is the basic idea and challenge of muzzleloader hunting.That being said,what's the big deal ifthe muzzleloader has an in-line ignition? I'm not arguing that scopes should be allowed, I don't think they should be. I just think there's no reason to not include in-lines in the season.

Also, the "orange army" consists of Jo Schmo taking 200+yard potshots one after the other, which simply isn't possible with a muzzleloader, even with an in-line. I also don't understand how someone could be against the use of in-lines but for the addition of percussion-cap MLs. I guess it's all just generational differences.

RE: Pennsylvania
 

Not to start a bickering match or anything, but I too hope that they keep the flintlock season solely flintlock...or possibly adding match-locks and such as someone else mentioned. With modernization taking over nearly every aspect of hunting in someway, shape, or form, I love the primitive nature of flintlocks. Heck at times I think bows, my ownincluded, has become too modern for the intended meaning of an archery season.

Its nice they allowed a different chance for people to use their inlines in some fashion other than during the regular rifle season, but infringing on the nostalgic nature of hunting the deep snow with a flint and pan would be too much for me.

Inlines have gone too far IMO to be considered muzzleloaders...other than the fact you load it from the front. With sabots and special powders, to 200 yd ranges and shotgun primers....they seem to be more like rifles then the flintlocks of the past. Grouping those two in one season is like putting cheese and pasta in the same isle at a grocery store. They just don't go together.

I'm not sure it a generational difference either...I'm two years younger than you are;) It think it has to do with your personal beliefs and why individuals hunt.

RE: Pennsylvania
 

In-lines do have their own season in PA. Only the last thre days can a rifle be used and even then, the only ones that can use a rifle are senior, youth and military hunters.

In-lines get 4 days to themselves and share 3 more days with others. That's not too bad considering in-line hunters get 2 Saturdays and 5 weekdays.

In-lines also get hunt hunt deer when they've been under very little pressure. The only pressure is from archery hunters, which aren't known to drive and chase deer out of their home range.

Although this season is doe only, we still get the chance to have a season to ourselves, basicaly.

If you want to take a buck, hunt with an in-line during the regular firearms season.

RE: Pennsylvania
 

you can use an inline for 3 weeks in PA. all of rifle season and the early muzzleloader season. some special reg areas you can use them in the late season as well i believe.

i hope they never change the flintlock season. love not wearing orange and not worrying about it, and love the peace and quiet of flintlock season. 2 weeks with a rifle more then enough deer get taken.

i am not trying to start a pi$$ing match, but comparing an open sighted flintlock to a modern inline with a 209 ignition and probably a scope is not near fair. guys easily make 150-200yd shots with them inlines. i dont know anyone that will shoot over 100 with a flinter

my advice...if you want to hunt the late season buy a flinter! after shooting one youll be hooked! i think the smell of burnt REAL black powder has an effect similar to CRACK! they arent hard to learn, just take a little practice and know how. after that youll be drilling targets at 50yds in no time. thats all the farther id shoot. ill shoot out to 75yds if conditions are perfect and i have a GOOD shot.

RE: Pennsylvania
 

You know, all you flinters are beginning to make regret spending all this money on powder and bullets lately. Its really set me back in my ML budget and delayed the purchase ofmy next ML, a .58 flinter. I might just have to pull out those puppy dog eyes and see if I can get an advance from the mrs.:).

RE: Pennsylvania
 

Please excuse me if I start to rant, and it's not aimed at anyone in particular, no matter what I might say....I've just had it!!!!

PA's primitive season is the last bastion of "real" hunting that I know about, atleast anywhere that is a reasonable commute for me. Forget about flintlocks and roundballs for a moment, think about what hunting in 2006 has become. 300fps+ bows with 85% let off and mechanical heads on carbon arrows, I'll skip them and just get a crossbow, what's the difference? Sentlock suits, tons of calls + electonic ones, cover scents, enough camo that you should be invisable. Baiting, if you want to bait you don't even have to struggle to dumpa bucket of corn out evey few days, just get an electionic one with a 55gal drum and watch what shows up on your laptop. Of course, nobody who is a serious hunter goes to public ground-(unless they have an ATV), $10,000.00/year leases is the only way to go if you want to "hunt"-ha!, a large buck, and big antlers is what it's all about, right? I know a guy who hunts a lease and has more electonic gear on it than I have in my house, he actually names the bucks on the property and decides which one to kill befor he even "hunts" over his feeder, and he get results, yeah-I'm impressed. And if you can't quite come up with the cost of a lease and all the equipment you (need) to ha!-hunt it, you can always just buy a buck, I mean hunt a buck at some guided place that grows them big for ya to shoot, saves time too. Speaking of saving time-(back to ML'rs), who needs all that messy black powder stuff, just get a Savage and shoot your pistol bullets with smokeless, heck it's almost the same thing since you only get one shot and a scope doesn't really matter, now does it.

My comments here are about hunting in generaland if it's because of my generation and someone doesn't see my point then I feel sorry for there generation. You see, I remember when hunting was about guys getting together to HUNT deer, getting one was great but to behonest, we had more fun ribbing the guy who blew his chance. That was ussually done at night, sitting at a table playing cards-(real cards, not internet poker)-and the drink of choice was often poured into a small glass from bottles that were marked WT or JW, not ready made drinks with twist off tops in plastic bottles. If you were out and a deer winded your red plaid coat and bounded off while you stood there with your "dirty-thirty" Winchester slung over your arm, you most likely thought "Good for you Big guy", not, darn, if only I had a new scentlock suit or maybe I need a bigger scope, better camo,nevermind I'll just call so & so on the cell and tell him to get ready cause the deer is heading for him-with all we spent this year we have to get something to bring home-just to prove that we had fun.

I'm sorry to spout off like this but I see very little hunting going on these days andway too much interest onlyin what & how many are killed. Results...just get results and never mind how you do it, might as well just go to work. So, do us "old" guys a favor and leave the primative season alone until we die off.

Doug

RE: Pennsylvania
 

I think you and I both were born a century too late.:)

RE: Pennsylvania
 

i agree doug. the early doe season should be done away with.leave archery hunters alone at this time. if you want to use inline, use it in the gun season. you have 2 weeks.i use my flintlock then hunting my buck.i see people shooting 150 yards with those in-lines.they only bought them to make getting their meat easier. what are we turning into, bunch of people that want everything easy for us. i like it hard hunting not easy.in-line is just to much like rifle to me. for target , i think they are real fun,but i would never use one for hunting a buck.too easy for me.

RE: Pennsylvania
 

I guess I'll be the in-line advocate here. If you've accepted the challenge of using a flintlock and are willing to abide by it's limitations, great. May you never see the bottom of you freezer;).
What I don't understand, though, is the thinking that using an inline is somehow cheating. Lazy, some of you call it. I spent I don't know how many hours I spent on the range trying to develop loads for my gun. I practice at least once a week to keep my shooting skills sharp. I swab in between shots, and the gun gets cleaned after each and every stinkin' shooting session. I honestly don't see the "easy" part.
It makes me wonder how many in Pennsylvania pick up a flintlock like 2 weeks before the late season, figure out how to get it spark and go boom, a couple more shots at a pie plate 50 yds and away they go... But, they're "Real Hunters" and not those cheater in-liners...[&o]

RE: Pennsylvania
 

Hey, I have both flint and inline. It's just that why is there a problem withhaving the later season flint only. Again, there is the early season, there is the regular season also.

As far as the thoughts that it is easier with an inline, IMHO it is. I work out loads for all of my firearms to see what is best but with my inline, like my cartridge firearms, I never have to worry about ignition, delay, almost never about hangfire, rain ormoisture,etcetera. And even without counting the rifles able to use smokeless, it is near to using a regualr single shot rifle in performance and ease of use. Flint, and to a point percussion, you do have all of those things and more.

RE: Pennsylvania
 

Doegirl & others,

My statements were made in general, and the trouble with general statements is thatthey generally miss a large number of factors and in this case, people. For example, I mentioned the "good old days" of guys hunting in plaid coats, trust me, not all of those guys were good hunters and quite a few rarely practiced with their trusty Winchesters before the season. And, I've been around this internet longenough to realize that there are many who take inlineshooting more seriously than some who shoot a more primitive type of gun,most of my friends shoot inlines and a couple of them are darn good hunters to boot. Inlines are just a symptom of a much large disease, for lack of a better word call it greed, or me-ism, a disease that is permiating through our whole society and not just hunting. If inlines are not any easier then why, when the percentage of people that hunt in this country is dropping, do we seesuch a higher percentage of people out during ML'r season? I've been around long enough to tell you that this increase started when inlines became good enough and/or cheap enough that a guy could go to the store and buy one, sight it in quickly and just head into the woods, just like many centerfires. I could care less about how many people are in the woods, but I do care about what is happening to our sport in general and specificallyML'g season. Muzzel loading season was not started to make things easier on the hunter, just the opposite, but that has gone out the window. It's now just a little more time for someone to put meat on the table so they have a sucess story, also a game management and money makingtool for the state. Kind of like what our "real" lives have become, success is measured by what material things you have, the big house, fancy car or truck, all of whichare regulated by the state and we tend to spend our lives finding easier ways to aquire these things and skate around the gov'tregulations we don't like. I have to live in this country and in some ways am guilty of the same thing in my (real) life. But to me,black powder or primitive seasonwas an escape from these things, a time to kick back, I don't want to worry if the battery in my scopeis charged, I have to worry about my worklaptop battery all year, forget batteries-(OK, I use a flashlight, so sue me..LOL).

My point in all this dribble is, Muzzel loading season used to be a special time, in my state they called it a "special season", a time when you rarely met a person in the woods who just wanted another deer. They were mostly just happy to be in the woods and that alone was their success. It's now justan extension ofrifle/gun season and there is nothing really special about that.

Doug,

BTW: I do own an inline and have hunted with it. Bought it in the mid 90's, plopped a nice Leupold on it, quickly got it accurate out to 150yds and with a little work itwould print nice out to 200-(it's a TC Firehawk and extremly accurate, as good as I've seen and since I'm a gun nut I kept it). First season I took it in the woods a buddy and I were tracking a wounded doe, it was laying down and stuck it's head up to look at us, maybe 80 yards. I popped the gun up and shot it in the neck, my buddy turned to me and said, "man-that was easy". It was easy, too easy, and just like in cartoons a little lightbulb flashed over my head and I realized I had wasted 600 dollars on a gun I would not be hunting with again.

RE: Pennsylvania
 

If we step back, we'll find that its not an inline vs flintlock battle. The real battle here is preserving a longstanding tradition in Pennsyvania. As I think about it, I consider Pennsylvania fortunate to be the only state with such a longstanding tradition as their flintlock hunt.

When I read the comments of DougS, sproulman, and PaBowFlinter, I am reminded that greatest part of hunting is the hunt itself. It's kinda like a vacation or a birthday, the time leading up to i think is maybe as much fun as the event itself. And so it is with hunting,thehunt isall the things which happen that eventually lead to the harvest. If one wants to enrich the experience of hunting, then all he needs to do is pack more experienceintothe hunt.

I do hope that Pennsylvania is able to preserve its flintlock hunting tradition and that as this generationof flinters fades, the next generation of flinters takes the torch forward and passes the tradition to even yet another generation. It is a tradition worth preserving.

RE: Pennsylvania
 

I personally have no problem with a separate Primitive season as I hunt with primitive rifles as well as inline rifles. I hope Pennsylvania or any other State for that matter can preserve their Primitive season. Just as long as everyone that wants to hunt, gets a chance, in the way and with what they want.Ibelieve Inline muzzle loaders deserve their time in the woods as well, without being grouped into the modern season. Inline muzzle loaders are not modern rifles. If you don’t believe that, meet me on the range and I will bring my Remington 742 Woodsmaster Rifle and we will have a little shooting match for accuracy and speed and you can use any of my inline rifles you like. Inlines loads from the muzzle just like your Grand Pappy’s old flintlock. It’s ignition, though different, is still separate from the main powder charge and subject to failure. It is a muzzleloader. Accept that fact, and the fact that inline rifles have brought more hunters into the sport in recent years (based on overall sales figures) and there fore increased the likely hood that the sport of hunting and shooting that many of us so love, well be around for years to come for our children and their children to enjoy.

RE: Pennsylvania
 

Pennsylvania is the mostly deeply rooted traditional muzzleloader state.

I don't think we will find any rebirth in flintlocks - or states adding primitive seasons. Personally, I don't like this fashion of shooting flintlock MLs. Cash registers in hunting stores across America seem to agree with me.

Long-live all the traditionalists thou. I visit their reenactments & festivities on occasion & respect their line in the sand.

I'm done here. Would rather see a state like Michigan expand the muzzleloading season -- to include all types of muzzleloaders.

RE: Pennsylvania
 

i dont hate in-line.i just like flintlock more. in-line to me is like carrying a rifle.but its great for 1 day a year hunter or someone thats to busy to take time to shoot. scopes are put on most just like rifle. some have bad eyes and cant use open sights. i am getting that way too.i think flintlock is more fun, is all. to many in-line is more fun because its easier to use. has nice scope up there. i missed many of a buck that if i had in-line, they would be in freezer.its like i shoot a recurve bow.i am only 1 at club that does.i can shoot the same or better at target than others up to 30 shots.then i get tired.but you have to practice.compound is like the in-line.scopes and release aid. it makes it easier.i dont want that.i want it HARD.thats why i hunt bucks only,too easy for me to get doe.i think in-line is great thing for some to get out hunting and some that have bad eyes. i hope my eyes dont get so bad that i have to go to in-line with scope.but if so, then in-line will be what i use .

RE: Pennsylvania
 

I too enjoy the flintlock only season. I had an in-line and sold it. I like the nostalgia of the sidelock. When I hunt the early season, I carry my Hawken or Renegade percussion and sometimes even the Hawken flinter. I have nothing against the in-lines but a quality in-line, scoped, and the right load combo can take a deer at 200 yds, surely at 150 yds. IMO, I'd much rather use the sidelock and get within 75 yds and drop the hammer. Seems like more fun, and isn't that the idea.

RE: Pennsylvania
 

Absolutely. They (we) need to leave the flintlock late season alone. It's for them. The inliners have their own season in Pennsylvania, too. Seems fair enough. I guess there is some whining that the early season is does only, whereas flinters in the late season can get a buck or a doe. I guess if you want to kill a buck with a muzzleloader in Pennsyvania you A. hunt the general gun season or b. buy a flintlock.

RE: Pennsylvania
 

IMO, there's plenty of time before the late flintlock season for a person to try to bag a deer with one of the other kinds of muzzleloaders. I hope they keep the late season "flintlocks only". Shame they had tolegalize sabots and conicals for the flintlock season - and those dad-burned "fiber-optic inserts" in "open" sights.....

I personally use a sidelock ML alot during regular gun season, as mostshots around here are at ranges of 50 yards or less......

Don't be in too big a hurry to change things! All changes are necessarily improvements!

RE: Pennsylvania
 

Doegirl, what you say is very reasonable.

The real handicap is having to put a powder charge and bullet in from the front end, whether flinter or inline. I have used both sidelocks and inlines, and believe me, a well-tuned flintlock causes no handicaps or hardships at all. They can be loaded and fired as fast as an inline, and have just as long an effective range if one uses a big bore rifle that will carry a lot of momentum downrange, knows the trajectory of their rifle, and can estimate ranges accurately!

Granted, really wet weather does cause more of a challenge, but it is possible to keep the powder dry! Just use a cow's knee or put plastic wrap around the lock section and muzzle of the gun.......