Crud ring location?
 

I was shooting my CVA Kodiak Mag over the weekend. I usually use a load consisting of 2 777 pellets topped with a 223 grain powerbelt aerotip. I get great accuracy and have killed deer out to 150 yards with this load. I always use a brass jig followed by a wet then two dry patches for cleaning between shots. If I do not cleanthis way I cannot get the powerbelt to seet the same depth everytime due to the crud ring. My brother asked me why I don't just add the third 777 pellet on follow up shots instead of cleaning. His theory was the crud ringafter the first shot with two pellets, would be close enough to the breech plug to be eclipsed by three pellets. Therefore, eliminating the cleaning and allowing a faster follow up shot if needed. I realize the accuracy might change, but does anybody know if this might work. It did peak my curiosity. I guess I would have to know the general distance between the crud ring and the breech plug.

RE: Crud ring location?
 

Well the first thing is your accuracy might be very different. Also that is a maximum load in your rifle. Powerbelts normally shoot better with less then magnum loads although this is not always the case.

I would instead, perhapstry some Pyrodex Pellets instead of the Triple Se7en if you're that concerned about a fast second shot. Otherwise, make the first shot count, take your time, swab the rifle, load the next load like normal, and by then if you placed the first one right, the animal should be down or well on the way.

Another idea is find something that can be loaded as a second shot, with reasonable accuracy for a follow up instead of the powerbelt.

It is an interesting delima.

RE: Crud ring location?
 

Try APP or Gold, I gave up on 777 the crud rings were awful with APP-FF or sticks 3 or 4 shots is no problem some shoot 10 or 12 but I like to wipe often enough so I dont have to actually clean. Lee

RE: Crud ring location?
 

With most powders your second or third shot will be loaded a bit higher in the barrel due to fowling period. With T7 the crud ring makes it hard to clean but the volume of space taken by the fowling is about the same as bp or Pyrodex.

It seems the area below the bullet gets most of the fowling and that restricts the size of the bore. I am not alarmed to find shots that seat a bit above the "witness" mark on the ramrod within reason. As long as I know I seated the projectile firmly I am not worried.

I do like loose powder because it helps me determine if everything is working right.

Just for the record if you like T7 but have crud ring problems in your rifle run a very wet patch (water only is fine) down till you hit the crud wait a few seconds and then clean as you always do. T7 needs a bit more liquid to clean but does not need strong solvent.

RE: Crud ring location?
 

i have something i want you to try cause it worked for me, so its not like rocket science.
reminton makes a primer that is made just for muzzel loaders.
its model #209ml i dont know why they work so well but they do.
and ya got to have primers any way.so why not use one that cuts the crud.

RE: Crud ring location?
 

Right, and I sometimes think the reason for the higher seat is purely the result of the volume occupied by fouling below the previous seat lifting the powder column. Not specifically contact with this heavier fouling by the bottom of the next loaded projectile.

Anyway its best to make the first shot count, then one can take all the time in the world loading the second round. Usually, it doesn't matter whether it takes 10 seconds or 60 seconds to load that second round. I personally think its more important to relax and take one's time loading again so that mistakes aren't made. For example, loading a bullet with out a charge, or forgetting to prime. Better to do it slowlybut correctlythan do it fast and get it wrong.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Crud ring location?
 

All the talk about a great first shot is fine for deer; but I hunt elk by myself and do not want them walking to the bottom of a ravine before they fall down. I want a second shot available fast as they are tough and I have had heart shot cows walk off for almost ten minutes before they dropped. I had one cow with a double lung shot and a second one made when she was running at about 100 yards that took out the liver walk and run over a half mile before I finally managed to head shoot her. She saw me and had the adrenaline pumping apparently. That is why I am presently using Black Mag'3. I have such severe crud rings with 777 that I refuse to use the stuff. That second shot was within 30 second or less of the first shot which would be impossible with 777 in my rifle.

RE: Crud ring location?
 

Sure hope that doesn't happen to me. I'm gonna be shooting with 3f Black Powder for elk so my first shot needs to do its work and work well. What was the projectile and charge you were using that day?

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Crud ring location?
 

Use a cooler priimer like Winchester/Triple Se7en 209s or Remington Kleanbore 209.

Switch to 777 FFF loose powder .. it's smaller/cleaner - thus a tad softer fouling.

Get yourself a palm-saver or T-Handle device for the end of your ramrod. Gives you more powder to push/more leverage for loading bullets.

Use a bore brush instead of a jag for swabbing. Then use the jag for seating the bullet. I always take two ramrods to the range. Keep your patches wet to the touch & turn the ramrod clockwise a revolution or three when you reach the bore-bottom -- for better cleaning of the crud area - then clean with up & down strokes.

RE: Crud ring location?
 

The first shot was 90gr. Black Mag'3 and a Hornady 300gr. SST. The follow up shot was a 295gr. copper clad aerotip Powerbelt. Both bullets were complete pass through and the holes on the exit side were about the same size as a fifty cent piece. I am going to try some heavier bullets this year as I got drawn for antlerless elk again and there are now more bullets to chose from. I may try the deadcenter 390gr. bullets and maybe the 348 powerbelt as a follow-up as they load a lot easier as a second shot. I think I will still stick with the Black Mag'3 unless my trials show me something better. I bought some Goex Pinnacle to try also. If no bone is hit the 300gr. bullets are probably as effective as heavier ones as long as they go completely through.

RE: Crud ring location?
 

I have tried the cooler primers that I could find. I just found some Tripple Seven ones to trynext. All the swabbing between shots is fine at the range but when hunting just does not go over with me. I found in my rifle that I had to use the bronze brush as a patch would not remove the crud ring from 777. I know my rifle apparently is one of the worst ones for crud ring and other Omega owners do not have the problem as severe. Strange??

RE: Crud ring location?
 

I really do think that it was your first shot that counted. The second shot,though itwould definitely kill the cow, would have allowed her to go alot further than 1/2 mile before having to stop. Even with your pursuit, she had to go from flight to fight because the lung shot was rapidly killing her, allowing you to shoot her in the head.

There is a school of thought, not saying it is truer or better than your thoughts on the matter, that additional shooting and rapid pursuit can make recovery more difficult. It may be possible that had you refrained from the second shot and pursuit, that the cow may not have run as far it did. When lethally wounded in the lungs, especially well placed in the lungs, game quickly begins to drown in its own blood. Generally, the effect of this is to cause the animal to "wind" and when this happens they will most often stop as soon as they "feel" safe enough to. Where they stop, is generally where they die.

You were able to head shoot the elkon the third shotbecause she was so weak from loss of blood and drowning lungs that she couldn't run any more. Fleeing was no longer an option for her and she had to stand her ground. I've heard that elk can be dangerous, as can moose, when they must stay put. She may have died "right there" even had you not shot her in the head.

As crazy as all this sounds, even though you put three shots in her, it seems that it was that first shot which really counted.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Crud ring location?
 

You are probably right. I know once the adrenaline started working for the cow she seemed to become stronger as time went on. If I had better confidence in the first shot I probably would not have taken the second one. The first shot was through some brush and about my maximum distance so the confidence was not as good as it should have been. It was one of those "take the shot- don't take the shot" and when it looked the best I couldn't wait any longer and had to take it. It was coming to the end of my hunt and I needed the meat. It all worked out in the end but the kill was not the way I like them.

RE: Crud ring location?
 

It all worked out great. Your elk was harvested and you did that as humanely as one can. As you said, elk are tough animals,and while they are "dead already" the moment a projectile begins to tunnel a 1" hole through both lungs, it takes time for the wound to do its thing on them.To be perfectly honest, I"know" I would have done the same had I not had 100%confidence in my first shot. Given that the shot was through cover at the far end of my range, I wouldn't not have had 100% confidence in the shot. In any event, it was a great first shot, which not only counted,but alsomade the harvest possible.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Crud ring location?
 

kathwacckkk: Just a thought about your brother's idea of dropping 3 pellets in for the 2nd shot - what about three 30 gr pellets? I don't know if the total length would be longer or not, but you might check it out. They would be 10 gr less powerful than your 2-50 grainers, but might still be good enough for a 2nd shot, and not maxxing out your rifle.

RE: Crud ring location?
 

Duringmy Powerbelt shooting days, I recall 80 grains being a nice volume to use. So why not try (1) 50 gr. pellet and (1) 30 gr. pellet?

Less powder - changing to FFF and the weakest 209 primers have pretty-much eliminated any 777 crud ring in my Omega. Adding a third 50 gr. pellet will make matters worse - not better!