FFg to FFFg
 

when you change from 2f to 3f do you reduce the load? if so how much? the 3 guns we have one is 120gr 2F one is 90gr 2f and one is 40 gr 2f. so how much do i need to reduce to? the powder is clean shot. where we have goten it last time had 2f but now they only have 3f. i want to get a new can before hunting seasion.
L. O. D. Charter member and L.O.S.

RE: FFg to FFFg
 

With regular BP, the old rule of thumb was reduce your best 2f load by 10%, and you were with striking distance of your best 3f load. if you hear th round crack like a rifle (and you will know the sound when you hear it), reduce the load till you don't hear the crack. Of course, the correct way is to work up from a low load, finding your most accurate load with the powder/projectile combo. I tend to find with convertional sidelocks and conicals, this tends to be (for me) about 5 grns below where the rifle starts to crack. I seem to get best accuracy from my 1:48's right about here. HOWEVER>>>the current thinking now is DO NOT use 3f in anything over .45 cal as it burns too fast, causing errosion of the lands and grooves by gas pressure.I beleive that clearshot generates a higher pressure than regular bp to start with anyway, with means you want to do 3f of that stuff even less. Check the manufacturer's website, but I me shure they will say 3f in a rifle is a no-no.

RE: FFg to FFFg
 

thanks ffor the info. the we site for clean and clear shot didnot say any thing about cal restrictions for 3 fff..
i puled up my hunter safty corce the bp we shot there was 3f in a 50.
the idea about not using 3f in biger than 45 where did it come from?

i think i will look around for 2 f and if i havt found it i will try 3f.
L. O. D. Charter member and L.O.S.

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RE: FFg to FFFg
 

the 120gr load of 2f is in a mag. inline "max charge 150gr"
L. O. D. Charter member and L.O.S.

RE: FFg to FFFg
 

I go with Coondog!
I've been using 90grn of fffg in a T/C 50 cal Hawkin for
better than 25 yrs! That gun still fires every time and is flat out dead on at 100yrds! The max I believe is 100 of ffg so I figure
I'm just about the same! I feel I get better ignition w/o any
hang fires by using the finer stuff.

RE: FFg to FFFg
 

You know as a reloader, I know that this is territory that you can get hurt in quick. To be a safe resposible reloader, you try to not deviate from the manufacturers suggested Max loads and recommendations. But I know a guy that also insists on using FFFg. Why? Not knocking anyone, but am trying to understand what you have to gain using a faster powder. What I see is losing Velocity with a faster powder and maybe reaching dangerous levels of pressure. Could someone educate me on why you would want to deviate from the manufacturers safety recommendations.

RE: FFg to FFFg
 

from reading the book that came with mine 2f and 3f are sutibal for the 50. it just does not show the 3f in the load chart.


but thanks for the help.. my supplyer says he is ordering today the 2f should be in monday.
L. O. D. Charter member and L.O.S.

RE: FFg to FFFg
 

What muzzleloader do you use? The people I know use mainly knights and there manual says you shouldn't use it. So I guess its a different question.

Good luck. Maybe you can go to hodgedons web pag and they will tell you. http://www.hodgdon.com/

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RE: FFg to FFFg
 

both rifles are cva. the bulltes that i shot are hornday grate planes 385gr hp and bufflo bore ball-let 245gr
L. O. D. Charter member and L.O.S.

RE: FFg to FFFg
 

"bigcountry, as usual with many of you guys that lean toward the latest gimmics and gadgets, you're mixing apples and oranges again."

I don't think so. Just on my chrono, I see up to 200fps velocity differences. Actually (200fps loss). And entering a realm where your are not really supposed to. And thanks for the complement about latest gimmics and gadgets. Your right on, I am not closeminded, hardheaded person. I use my head and logic.

"Black Powder cartriage is not as limited as the reloading of modern smokeless cartriages, and aren't really comparable.The suggested loads for rifles in black powder are just that, suggested, because of the corperate lawyers for the manufacturers. That is to reduce any possible liabilities. By all means, those not experianced should follow all manufacturers reccommendations. I've used 3f since 1962, some 40 years with great results. I find it more reliable to hold consistancy in accuracy."

Well, I guess you found your load that works for you. Congradulations. Alot of people haven't with this method. And you might want to rethink your thought of not really comparable. Same principle, same physics, same harmonics of the barrel. Wanting to achieve the same thing, one hole real fast.

"The measured charges are more consistant. It's cleaner to shoot and gives better results while wiping between shots, for target matches."

Thank you, now this may be a valid reason and what I was looking for as an answer. I just was hoping it wasn't "Well my daddy told me to do it this way, so I did".

"The "felt recoil" with 3f feels much better on my shoulder after a full days shooting, and I don't develope a flinch, because of anticipation, as often with it."

Gosh, I hope you wouldn't with or without FFF if you shoot as much as you say.

Coondog, thanks for the reply.

RE: FFg to FFFg
 

Coondog is telling you of 40 years worth of experience shooting 3F grade powder. I started shooting BP in 1971, switched to Pyrodex as soon as it was available and have mostly shot Pyrodex P (3F) grade in every rifle since. Coondog is not misleading you and I would agree with his observations.

One big advantage if you do use a lot of powder, or if you just like to pinch pennies, is getting 10-15% more shots per pound given loads of comparable ballistics. I also agree with the other positive aspects Coondog related. There is no "May" about it.

He has also related to you the major concern WITH using 3F grade powders in rifles over .45 caliber, that being the notion that barrel errosion is greater (notice I didn't say pressure concerns, that isn't THE concern). I've seen no evidence of that whatsoever.

How quickly have those same manufacturers that overlook or recommend against using 3F powders provided load recommendations for Triple 7? Triple 7 is so much hotter than 3F grades of any other sub or black (possibly excepting KIK and Swiss) out there and creates so much higher pressures that one would have to doubt the basis for ANY concern in using rational loads of 3F.

RE: FFg to FFFg
 

Underclocked, you say hotter. But I am talking about the speed of burning. This is a totally different thing. Blackpowder is fast. I mean real fast. Most of the pressure is exhausted quickly within a few inch's of the barrel like a shotgun using Unique powder. Breaking down the powder to FFF, makes it faster, hence the loss of velocity. Now the barrel is soaking up alot of velocity which I don't want it to do.

Like I said, congrads on Coondog's success with the FFF. Sounds like it works for him and I thank him for his reasons and responces. Don't mean I agree with him. I get great groups and velocity with pyrodex ff. So I get what I am looking for. I mean who's to say I don't have bunchs and bunchs of experience to share with others. Because he has such great experience with FFF, does that mean everyone on the board should change over?

RE: FFg to FFFg
 

The manual for my .50 Lyman has a chart for maximum loads for blacl powder. The max load for fffg is roughly 10% less than that of ffg.


Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms... who's bringing the chips?

RE: FFg to FFFg
 

bigcountry <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>does that mean everyone on the board should change over? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
NO! And I don't want them to do so. Would drive the price of my P up! :)

And I'm not quite following your analysis of burn rates vs velocity, sorry.

RE: FFg to FFFg
 

If you look at the old Lyman BP manual, the one with Rd Yard's pressure data, it is pobvious that FFFg can produce velocities as high as FFg will, but at somewhat higher pressures, like 12,000 to 15, 000 PSI versus 7,000 to 10,000 PSI. This increase is noticeable, but not enough of a jump to damage any reasonably made gun!! Most BP cartridge rifles are built to be safe at 25,000 PSI or higher, like the Sharps or Rem. Rolling Block.

Keep yore powder dry!!

RE: FFg to FFFg
 

AGAIN!
Coondog is on the money, Like him I find better results
and cleaner burn with fffg. T/C finds it acceptable for use in their 50 cal hawkin. I didn't &quot;just do this&quot; I arrived at my present
load after hours of bench time trying multiple loads of powder
and projectile combinations. Similar to Coondog I've been doin'
it for decades and my gun shows NO adverse reactions to this load!
NOTHING equals experience in this arena. BUT like Big Country says
&quot;you shouldn't do something cause Daddy did&quot; Even mistakes can be
handed down from generation to generation. There is a plethora
of info here, most of it is invaluable, but some of it needs to be culled through and taken with a grain of salt.
Stay well All, JWB

RE: FFg to FFFg
 

Ok, here is what I was trying to see if someone would say. Most of the guys in Ky I hunt with use FFF in there rifles. They do it cause they claim there is no delay in fire when thier cap goes off. But one used over 130gr and ended up with some damage somewhere. I don't know the details as I wasn't there. But they used it very half hazardly. This was the same guy using two balls separated by a patch. Swore he did it for years. So with all that wieght in two balls and 130gr of FFF, I think that was the edge. I wasn't aware that some rifle makers actually calls out fff recommendatons. I am used only to using it in my pistol. Learn something everyday.

RE: FFg to FFFg
 

130 gr of fffg? did he double charge? Must be some kind of stunt shooter to try it with 2 balls loaded also.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms... who's bringing the chips?

RE: FFg to FFFg
 

You know I tried to talk to him when I saw him do this. I explained that if you increase you wieght of bullet, you got to drop your powder, but he insisted that it was safe. You won't believe the number of people I know that do this two ball loading. Not ever in my gun. Even if its safe, your velocity wouldn't break 1000fps probably. But he went on to say &quot;junior, I have been shooting muzzleloaders since you were crapping in your pants&quot;. So I just laughed and went on. Oh boy, family, you can't live with them and you can't kill em.

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RE: FFg to FFFg
 

I don't know of anyone shooting all the restocked animals. They do do there share of poaching. But its normal to see 20 turkey a day there. Only know of two instances of the elk being downed illigally. And there ain't any police around, so they could care less about laws. Alot of them do it strickly for meat and to survive. Its not a passion or hobby for alot of them like myself and probably you. That being said, I always question that theory of survival since they always poach 150 and 160 class bucks instead of does.

Now coondog, they do there share of poaching up in there in southern ohio, I know for fact.