Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

Well, I finally made it back out after 2 weeks vacation, sore neck/numb right arm, 90++ degree days.........

The day started off good. I planned on trying to get up early to beat the heat. I succeeded in getting up at 5:30, helped by my neck killing me and having to take a leak. All was pretty good until I found the huge diarrhea land mine my lab left for me by the door. Evidently, she got into some extra food that I didn't know about. Labs have a way of doing that. After about 20 minutes of cleaning, I was back on track.

Got to my shooting spot at about 7:00 and about 10 minutes later another pickup showed on the horizon. Whew, I just beat them. There is really only one good spot there to shoot, so I got lucky this time.

Since I had last shot, I replaced the front ramp and front sight with a much lower profile combination and a white bead. I thought this would work much better with the Lyman peep sight and it did.





That and the fact that I was shooting conicals for the first time, I started off at 25 yards with the Bullshop 460s making adjustment after each shot. The other shots on that target were from sighting in from a different day shooting.





After I got it close, I made one final adjustment and moved the target back to 50 yards. I just made 3 shots with the 460's with no swabbing, infact, I didn't swab the whole day.





I decided to shoot 3 of the 500s, so I did. No sight change, no powder change or anything else. After the second shot of the 500s, I thought "dang, that sight picture was different" and sure enough it was high.





Since I wasn't happy with that one shot, I decided to shoot a 500 at one of UC's targets just to see. Well, heck, couldn't even tell where the middle of the paper was. Didn't know for sure at the time if it was UC's fault, or the fact that my printer cartridge was low and didn't print too good. I determined later it was UC's fault.





Then I decided to shoot some of the big boys. I backed off 5 gr on the powder, but kept everything else the same.





Here was my shooting setup. You can see how bad that UC target is!!!! It's on the right.





Anyway, that was enough for me for one day. A couple notes though.

I must say, that with my neck and right arm in the condition it is in, I had to concentrate real hard to do my job. Better sense probably would have been to stay home and wait for a different day, but I just couldn't wait to shoot some conicals.

And the one kicker to the whole thing. Can anyone tell mehow the .504's from Bullshop load in your Ultra Mags?????? The first one on a clean, dry barrel slid down the barrel all by itself. After that, the weight of the loading rod by itself easily pushed the bullet down the barrel. As I said, I didn't swab while shooting and all the bullets loaded the same. I don't have anything here at the house to measure them with, but will TRY to remember to bring a pair of calipers home from work tomorrow. I am planning on using either the 460's or 500's to hunt with this year, but am going to have to get some sized a little bigger. Has anyone else had to do this???

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

cascadedad

Nice shootin... I do wish the weather would cool down... The were really nice round holes.

I haven't been able to do anything over here for awhile - to much work and not enough play time - hopefully next week end - except it is supposed to be the hottest weekend of the year so far...

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

Cascadedad - Wow, great shooting. Those Whites can really shoot. Thanks for sharing.

Surprised the different conicals all seemed to be impacting the same...regardless of weight. Perhaps there would be a larger difference if you moved back to 100 yards.

Again, thanks for sharing...always interested to see how those Whites are shooting.:D

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

Great shooting!!

Can you give the specifics on the new front site?
Type, hght,and where to order?

Thanks
Steve

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

I ordered the ramp and sight from Midway. The exact ones are on my computer at home, will try to post the specifics tonight. Prior to changing the front sight, with 300 gr saboted bullets, the peep was way up in the air, so I knew shooting the conicals, I would need to change for sure. I think this setup will still leave enough down adjustment on the peep to shoot sabots and also enough up adjustment, without sticking way up in the air, to shoot the conicals.

Hope to move back to 100 yards and do some shooting real soon. I know my skills/eyes are probably not going to produce outstanding results, but hopefully good enough. Right now, I am trying to get used to shooting a muzzleloader and break the guns in. At some point I would like to put a scope on one just for punching holes in paper at longer distances to see what the gun and I can do. Can't use a scope for hunting here, so it is not a real high priority at this time.

SL, I know what you mean about the weather. It has been hot here. That is why I got up early to shoot. Early in the morning here is usually the best chance to get minimal wind also, which you very well know is a factor.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If not for this board and you guys, I would still probably just be THINKING about getting a ML. So, thanks a bunch. Also for all the great information.

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

One more thing I just thought of. I read where a couple have said their front sight was loose and slid out. Well, when taking mine out, it came out VERY easy. For those keeping the original, I would suggest you check that very carefully and maybe even remove and replace with a touch of locktite. Disaster could be lurking!

On the other hand, the one I installed was tight, tight, tight. I don't have a tool to install the sight into the dovetail of the ramp, but used a brass punch. If you do this, be very careful to get it started straight. I was successful, but it would be very easy to booger it up. Also, I used the original screw to install the new ramp and not the screw that came with it. The screw that came with it just didn't feel right when I screwed it in. The original was also a little bit longer which I thought was a good thing.

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

On my Ultra Mag, on a clean barrel, once I use my thumb and push it under the crown of the muzzle, it will start to disappear down the barrel. I then put the rod in on top and it seats itself, no strain. After the barrel is fowled, they still load easy and just slide down the barrel with slight pressure on the rod.

Its amazing to me that fact that I can shoot over twenty large conicals and never have to swab the barrel. Although, if you do swab you will get even better accuracy. Hard to believe with the kind of groups you're shooting, but as many know, I've clover leafed a fair number of three and even a few five shot groups when I took the time to swab between shots.

I really like your front sight. Send me a link as to where you might have purchased that, etc if you could. They look like something I would be interested in. Although I would rather have a green front sight and stick with the fiber optics in the back. I've shot a lot of peep sights and still do. While they are very accurate, they are not my favorite sighting device.

That by the way is some outstanding shooting. Especially taking into consideration your medical condition which would have played a part in all of that whether you can believe it or not. Very nice groups, tight and perfect round holes. BullShop did you a good job there...

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

:D :D:D Dan is the man on these conicals. He suggested over onDWB's forum that he would gladly skip one of the now two-step sizing operationhe does at .504 which should result in just a wee bit greater diameter. Even lead has a slight amount of springiness and the second sizing brings them to a true .504 (by my mic'). A tiny amount of resistance going down the bore might give some additional resistance so far as the bullet coming off its seat, buteliminating the wad would surely do the same.The wads may or may not be contributing to your very good accuracy (they surely are not hindering it).

Since you are blaming things on UC ;), whar'd ya git da info fer dat sight?

I envy your obviously good eyesight. Good shootin!

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

Here they are:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=430733

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=763623

I guess if I can dish it out, I better give credit where it is due. Pretty sure UC gave me the info on this. There, as much as I hated to do it, I did it.

Dave, I also like green. It shows up very well for me, unlike red which is horrible. Might as well paint it black. I think I have seen some little bottles offlorescent paint at one of the stores around here. I think I might try to paint mine. If/when I do I will post a pic.

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

Cas, Just curious why you got the whole sight Why not just the slide part?
Redclub

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

I decided to play with my Ultra Mag .504 today as well. It was 86 degrees and a slight breese. Rather nice actually. I set the bench at 50 yards and was using the fiber optic sights that came with the rifle.

I originally wanted to see how the 385 grain Buffalo Bullets would shoot out of the White. Well at 50 yards they shot OK. Not great and not bad. Nothing to get excited about. Just OK. They would be grouping well and then all of a sudden a flyer would hit and you'd be 6" out of the main group. I still have not figured that one out yet.

After getting disgusted with the Buffalo Bullets, I got out some of the 460 grain BullShop bullets casted in .504 for me. This batch does not fall down the barrel like the last batch. There is not really resistance mind you, but they are not as loose as the others were. I decided to try the same type of shooting Cascadedad did, with one shooting bag on the bench rest.



The target on the right you will note has a red X through one of the hits. That's because it was made by a 385 Buffalo Bullet. When I said flyers, I was not kidding... The others are not as good as Cascadedad's peep sight can accomplish, but for simple fiber optics, more then good enough for me to take a deer out of the running at that distance.

I shot 70 grains of Triple Se7en 3f and on the other 70 grains of Goex 3f. On the Goex target I had a respectable group going, then had to push the issue and had a slight flier. Still not too bad, but I should have quit when I was ahead...

I am starting to think, Warne QD rings and a Thompson Center 1X 32mm scope (legal for our muzzleloading season) which could be switched back and fourth on the mounts with my Nikon Pro Staff 2-7x32mm. I just have been finding it harder and harder to focus with the open sights when I get any distance on it...

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

Redclub, Both the ramp and the sight are significantly lower than the ones that came on the gun. Together, they are way lower, which is needed with the Lyman Peep sight, especially for shooting the conicals. I kind of just guessed on it and I think I hit it right on the money.

Actually, I think someone else pointed out the ramp at one time when I first started lurking here and then I asked UC and he pointed out that exact sight. Based on how it shot 300 gr saboted bullets, I decided to change the ramp and sight.

Thanks for doing some comparison shooting Dave. I believe that shooting the peep with the real small aperature on the back is a very precise combination, but it is definitely ONLY for target shooting. I will do some testing later using the larger aperature and then also with no aperature. I amagine my shooting will be similar to yours with those set ups.

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

Hey cayugad,

The Sidekick has land diameter of .501, and the Whiteis .504. I got the feeling thatis "too much" play. I would bet that the BB's lower rings barely mate the lands of the Whiteif they do that at all. With the 410s I used a wad which probably reduced alot of blow by. You might get a little betterperformancefrom them with a sub-base or even maybe a wad. One of these days I'm going to "mike" the Buffaloes when I get my hands on a micrometer.

The buffaloes are working in my "tighter than your White bore" butthe groups aren't asgoodas those of hornady's GPs whichhappen to be5 orders more difficult to load. In fact I think the goal of 4" is going to only be at 85 yards for the Buffaloes, but scoped, I am pretty sure the hornady's can sub-MOA at that same range, especially with BP for powder. I've thought about the Bullshops, but I think they would be "way to tight" to get started in my rifle. The hornadys begin easy and get tighter as one approaches the top band. I think B.S. is right. The top band needs to be groove diameter or pretty close to it. Maybe the hornadys would do well for the White, if you have some laying around, you might try them.

For hunting I am thinking of "pre-rifling" some hornadys in my barrel by crowning them, then rodding them out the muzzle. Kind of like B.S.'s swaging of Buffaloes, only I'll be more like resizing the hornadys so that they load easier in the field. Also I like this idea because I can cull any that get deformed going in for use at the range, leaving the most pristine for use while hunting.

The BullShop conicals shot well in your White. All critters had better stay clear of your aim:D!

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

Have any of you guys tried the PowerPunch 460's?

I was just reading this over and remembered I had brought my calipers home from work to measure the Bullshops. They were a consistent 0.5040" and I do mean consistent. Every one, all the way around, no matter where it was measured. No wonder they shoot so good.

Then I thought about measuring the conicals (PowerPunch 460's) that came with the Ultra Mags. Much to my surprise, right on the package it says .50 (503) caliber. Hmmmm, that's interesting. I measured and they were for the most part 0.5030 but that was on the front rib and back rib only. The inner 3 ribs are more like 0.500" or a little less, but not very consistent. The front and back ribs were not near as consistant as the Bullshop bullets either.

So, based on my experience with the slip fit of the Bullshop bullets (504's) in the Ultra Mag, why in the world would they supply 503's with the gun. I haven't tried it, but I would imagine they would just slide freely in and out of the barrel and I can't believe they would be accurate. Am I missing something???

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

My conical experience has always been at fairly short range. 75 yards and less. Easy slip fit with top bands that kinda pop in after moderate pressure has been what I have been used to with GPs and Maxiballs in a TC Hawken. The accuracy has been "acceptable" at 75 yards,but never really great like under 2".

My objective on getting the Sidekick was to achieve a load which was comparable to a 50-70 cartridge rifle, which in capable hands, are remarkably accurate with 400+ conicals to ranges I would have never considered in the past. I needed the 1:28 twist. So when one has the barrel to handle the big bullet and 70 grains to 90 grains black powder, its like an old cartridge rifle, except for one thing. The bullets in those rifles were groove diameter so the process of propelling them cut the grooves in the bullet so the bullet is always reliably stabilized.

With a muzzleloader, such a bullet, which were not typically pure lead, would be impractical andmaybe unsafe to load. So muzzleloading bullets have to be under groove diameter for most of there length or the difficulty in loading is unacceptable. As such we depend on obturation to get the kind of grip which would be necessary to sufficiently stabilize the bullet. A slip fit, obviously isn't enough, the bullet must obturate. In this sense, it would seem that the greatest the diameter, which in practice, can be consistently and reliably loaded from the muzzle, would be the best choice.

U. C. can comment on this, but I suspect in working out the sizing of the Bullshop bullets, he was trying to improveon thePower Punch's accuracy and I am convinced that there is an improvement,which, evenifsmall at ranges like 50 yards, could be considerable at ranges of 100 - 200 yards. Bullet instability effects on groupings grow exponentionally with range.

B. S., I think, has done considerable research on the "bore fit" aspect of conicals in muzzleloaders. He has gone as far as building a swage for swaging bullets to the precise dimensions of his barrel, to include its rifling, and as far as modifying his maxiball mold to produce bullets whose top band is groove diameter. From his comments, the results of doing these things are improvements in accuracy. From my experience with the tight fitting GP's, I have to say I think his comments are right on target. I do hope he comments here about it further.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

I've shot only the Power Punch conicals that came with the rifle when I bought it. They load very easy. In fact fowl the barrel first before shooting them. They still load easy and are very accurate. Also the Power Star Sabots (I believe they are called). I shot two of them and they shot great. I used 90 grains of Triple Se7en and with the scoped Ultra Mag they touched in the bull at 60 yards. I am kind of saving the rest of them for when we finally get some rain. Then I can safely get over into the hay field and do some long range shooting. Right now its too dry to be shooting over that field.

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

Cas, I changed the slide on my U-M and it works very well with 460's.
I also use a twilight apperature.
Ken

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

Bullshop can size from .500 to .504 and most bullets are done in a final double sizing. He will do a single sizing at the stated diameter, if requested, which will result in a very slightly larger diameter bullet. His bullets mic' perfectly so far (for me at least). Aclean bore fitting conical is almost ideal in most cases for those that shoot a fouled bore and the beauty of the things is their accuracy (in a good barrel)combined with ease of loading. Slight engraving will only somewhat diminish ease of loading, a small amount being nota bad thing oftentimes in terms of accuracy. Depending upon your area and type of hunting, a small amount of engraving on the clean bore might be more desireable as it would certainly help hold the bullet seated. For my rifles, the perfect compromise just leaves very slight rifling markings on a clean bore yet still loads quite easily.I'm in the habit of and recommendperiodically checking to seethe load has remained seated while hunting or after being loaded for any significant length of time.

I've got some PowerPunches that are .505 and came with one of my UltraMags. I'm sure they would load and probably shoot well, but the inconsistent sizing from batch to batch is a bit of a problem, IMHO. Haven't tried them.

Bullshop now has some ".50 Lites" at 300 and 350 grains (I believe those are the weights he indicated) if some of you want to try lighter weight conicals.

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

Is this right? I always thought, at least for a centerfire, that it took the bullet 100+ yards to stable out and after that things were more consistent. So, you can sight in one day at 100 yards and the next day with different conditions, you may have to adjust things. But if you sight in at 200 yards things remain more consistent, because at that distance the bullet has stabalized.

I haven't tested this at all, just what I remember reading somewhere years ago and it always stuck with me.

One of these evenings, I will push one of the Bullshops into the barrel and out and see what kind of engraving I get. I will do it on all 3 of the Ultra Mags and see if there are any differences at all. That will be interesting.

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

What I mean, is that if the bullet is not stable, the effects get worse in units of MOA the more range you put between the muzzle and target.

I haven't been shooting the buffaloes on a fouled barrel, but after reading UC's comments, I'll give that a try to see if it tightens groupings any. I know I'm engraving them.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Bullshops in my Ultra Mag
 

I believe Phil's statement with regard to instability is exactly right and sometimes dramatic changes (loss of accuracy)can result as a consequence.A riflethat groups a bullet well at 50 yards may not do well at all at 100. Mylimited experience with sabot carried rounds showed me the milk jug wonders are even MORE prone to accuracy loss at greater distances. Not suggesting that is true across the board as I know it isn't, but several of the bullets I tried, that did reasonably well at 100 yards, would have been awfully hard to find at 200. Trajectory tables are no replacement for field verification of load performance.

Some of the centerfire shooters I know are not at all impressed by sub-moa at 100 unless you show the rifle/load will do the same at 200. One of the finest shots I know suggests 200 yards with a centerfireisa minimum test of true accuracy for a given rifle/load. He has seen too many combos that simply fall apart accuracy-wise when the distance increases.

If you are going to attempt a 200 yard shot on a game animal, practice out to and including 200 yards.