Wolfhound76

I got the real pressure barrel concept, but I really was lacking information with the strain gauge apparatus. The concept I had - the how I didn't - the computer/electrode I do follow and I can follow the different allow thought.

But it something that I will not have or be able to use.

I am wondering... is there an independent engineer - naw that wouldn't be practicle either. There are just so many varibles in an ML..

Thanks for the info...

Re-read it Wolfhound. Take some time and it will all be clear to you. I don't have a 100 grain bullet in the .50 cal. The force on the bullet is completely independent of the bullet weight. All we calculated was how much pressure it takes to impress a given force onANY bullet. For a given force, it takes 4 times the pressure in .250 cal as it does in .500 cal. It is indisputable.

It is also indisputable that loads with peak pressures in the neibhorhood of 13000 psi can produce muzzle energies of 2300 ft. lbs. In .500 cal. that is.

Now that said. Given a particular charge. Will a heavier bullet cause higher pressures to build in the breech? You bet it will. But thats not the topic. The actual topic is this. One doesn't need 3 pyrodex pellets for a service load.

Happy Hunting, Phil

This is pretty close. The strain gauge is a electro-conductive sheet whose conductivity is a function of strain within itself. The sheet is attached to thebarrel with adhesive, and when the gun is fired, pressures expand the barrel stretching the electro-conductive sheet. If one can calibrate just how much the barrel was strained at a given point in time then it is possible to calculate pressure within the barrel at that location and time by knowing the dimensional properties of the barrel and the physical properties of steel of which the barrel is composed.

A strain gage does not take a direct measurement of pressure. Furthermore, it is unreliable as a measurement tool for pressure. The usefulness of a strain gage is more in "relational" data. That said. If it is calibrated with actual direct pressure measurement on the barrel on which they are installed, they can produce reliable data for the calculation of pressure.

Wolfhound76, if Randy is screwing around with strain guages, then don't trust any thing he tells you about them or the pressures he claims he is measuring. He's a friend of yours and I appreciate that, but I am correct in saying what I am saying, it simply will not hold in court against BPI'sdirect measurementpressure testing.

By the way, if you want to contribute beneficially to this thread, you could help me get data on the grades of steel used in the Spanish barrels, also Knights, NEF's, GM's, Whites, and T/C's. I can only assume Randy has this data. Will help us get this data? I need minimum yield strength and minimum tensile strength for the steels each uses.

Happy Hunting, Phil

"it simply will not hold in court against BPI'sdirect measurementpressure testing." Phil, whut testing?

Also think you should call RW directly if you would like him to provide information. I think you'll be in for a shock (hard to say what kind though ).

U.C.

I can not see BPI going to court without their own battery of tests, performed under stringent laboratory conditions, with direct measurement of pressure. Not strain gauge crap. Randy should be prepared for it. This notion that BPI is flying by the seat of its pants without any investment into the safety of their rifles, has GOT to be, false. Therefusalof BPI to provide Randy their due diligence is not "proof" that they didn't do their due diligence. Really, if I were any company, I would notgive anything to someone working for a law firm.

All I want is data. Real honest data. I'm asking you for it Randy. Give it to me please. All of the real honest properties of the materials. When you are done with that, please, just make a copy of everything, I mean everything. Every singletest you have ever done. How it was performed. How much charge, how far off the charge you are "short seating",how you "crack" pellets,so on and so forth. Precise accurate descriptions of the abuses the BPI and any other rifles are being put through in your home laboratory.

Now UC, I have formally asked Randy for it. I will be surprised if Randy supplies it. I don't know if Randy can supply it for the same reasons BPI didn't supply Randy with their data and testing. He can at the very least, supply the strengths of the steels.And if he does, I would appreciate it.

Some of things that T7 saiddidn't make all that much sense. Things like "soft extruded" and "bulge faster". It may well be that American barrels are "softer" at least in that they are more pliable capable of expanding without bursting when an abuse is done. Anyway, it is clear to me that this language is originating from Randy. As someone who is "GETTING PAID NOTHING", I would like to get as close to the bottom of this as I possibly can. Youcan help also, U. C., encourage Randy to supply it.

Something else is bothering me. I would also like Randy to explain what he found in his testing to encourage his continued support of Austin Halleck. You know, what he may think "is different" about the barrels.

Again, I understand he is a friend of yours, I do respect that.

Happy Hunting, Phil

No. I think your generalizing this too much. Pressure increases with bullet weight. The same powder charge will produce higher pressures with a heavier bullet than a lighter one while giving you less velocity. The way your saying this is that 12,750 psi and it doesn't matter what bullet. It does matter. You used aspecific bullet weight to generate the 51000 PSI in the 25 cal.For the formula to workyou have to use the same bullet weight in the 50 cal. It's not in the formula but if you change the parameters of how you got the PSI number you change the result. The numbers don't change, but the value to someone is suspect.

What would the pressure be in the 25 cal with a 75 gr bullet? With a 120 gr bullet? You change the bullet weight in the 25 cal you change the pressure. The pressure changes so does the result of the formula.But for the result to translate over to the 50 you have to use the same bullet weight.

If I remember right you used the max pressure of the 25 cal though.

So what is the pressure for the 100 gr bullet?


This is all theoretical and it's all nice and neat but it has no real world value.


And to answer the question about the strain gauge, no Randy does not use one. He uses the software/chrono version. And no I don't think he gets good data but he'll even admit the values can be off.

Good luck. He doesn't have a lab. The data he's got came from the companies themselves.

Thanks for your comments here, Wolfhound. Could you explain further? Take your time, and go into considerable detail. I was under the impression, from things that T7 wrote, that Randyhas determined through rigorous testing, that BPI rifles are not capable of taking the pressures american made rifles are capable of without bursting, while on the other hand, American made rifles merely bulge.

From what you said, it seems that Randy hasn't done any testing? He is not able to say that one barrel is softer than another or stronger than another, so on and so forth? Are the company's themselves providing Randy with data for the BPI barrels? I am confused how Randy is justified in drawing the conclusions he has.

Right now, I have the impression that Randy is more of a PR spokesman for the Law Firm as opposed to a "technical expert". And I fear, your friendship has been abused, in that, it seems Randy and the Law Firm use you, along with other well-meaning, sincere, and honest people;in this apparent "PR campaign".

Happy Hunting, Phil

Wolfhound,

You are quite confused. The problem you are having is that you fear where this thread is taking us. Let me tell you where we are going to go with it. I'll give you the "agenda" up front.

We are going to discover that people who encourage others to put 150 grains of pellets in their muzzleloaders, are givingadvice whichcan put the advised party in jeopardy. We are going to discover that giving people the impression that their muzzleloaderis without value or worth for hunting unless they load their MLer to 30,000 psiis misleading at best, a blatant outright lie at the worst.

It wasn't you who said that a Spanish barrel is proofed to only a third of a service load, was it? I don't remember. But if it was, then I forgive you because you couldn't have said that disingenuously, I think to highly of you to say that.

But thats where I am going with all this. I do hope that you approve of that. And for the life of me, I can't figure out why you wouldn't. Anyone who may change their loading practices as a result of this series can not help but to be safer, with a greater margin for mistakes, than what they were previously. You do support me in that, don't you?

Regarding the following:

You didn't specify the charge Wolfhound. You do know that there is no such thing as .50 cal 100 gr. bullet? But a very hollow one could feasibly be made. With 100 grains 2f BP, it would not be possible to exceed 4500 psi with say a ballet style 100 gr bullet. And of course, there is no way the muzzle energy is going to be 2300 ft.lbs.

To get the pressure up to 12750, we are going to have to choose a much heavier bullet, and if we do, we will have a very powerful, very effective, deer slayer in our hands.

This is what doesn't have any real world value.

"Soft extrudedbarrels bulge faster"

"The proofing is 1/3 of a service load"

"With max charges and monster bullets"

Just a few quips from acouple of well meaning and very naive guys who obviously don't are qualified to discuss such things.

Happy Hunting, Phil

Do you know what an extruded barrel is? They push the barrelthrough a die and at one end is a blank and the other is a barrel. The metal has to be very soft to do this. Currently the only barrels (other than the spanish muzzleloaders) that they use this process is paintball guns. Here is a very good post on the subject. Amost all the way down and posted by 1shot1kill.

http://www.huntamerica.com/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=386313&page=7&am p;fpart=18&vc=1

[/quote]Right now, I have the impression that Randy is more of a PR spokesman for the Law Firm as opposed to a "technical expert". And I fear, your friendship has been abused, in that, it seems Randy and the Law Firm use you, along with other well-meaning, sincere, and honest people;in this apparent "PR campaign".[/quote]

There is no PR campaign. This issue is over 2 years old. Well before Randy was contacted by the law firm in question. He started this THEN was contacted by the law firm about a couple cases. Read the date on the first post of the first page. This is nothing new. It started with questions about the proof. Here's a good post on the same page a little further up by RW.

If that's the case then the formulas you posted have no value. Everything has to be equal (exept one variable-bore diameter)for a result with a meaning. We were speaking hypothetically. A hypothetical bullet of 100 gr for 50 cal that fits the same in the bore as the 100 gr bullet in the 25 cal.and using the same powder charge and powderas the 51000 PSI 25 cal load. Anything else slants the results. If you want real information for real loads, check out "The CompleteBlackpowder Handbook". There are pressures listed. I don't have a copy but if you ask Randy maybe he'll give you some of the pressures.

By the way, I'm not into the magnumitus either. My favorite load is a 260 gr bullet with 100 gr FFG 777 loose at 1985 fps. 2275 ft/lbs at the muzzle. I have played with 3 pellet loads but I can count the number of such shots on one hand. I don't like the recoil.