Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

Since getting my chrono and new Sidekick, I discovered something I was previously unaware of. A new barrel can berough enough to affect velocities considerably. There is a major difference between 1435 fps (after some breaking in)and 1105 fps (on a new, clean, unused bore). That difference must translate to a higher peak pressure.

When I mentioned my findings, Pittsburghhunter commented that he always broke in his guns with ballets or the like. From a safety issue, I think it is a good thing too. Had I loaded 150 grains pellets, instead of the 65 grains loose, I suspect that the pressures on my initial firingswould have been pretty dog gone high, higher at least, than they would be now.

For whatever its worth, starting light, with cheap, affordable, conicals could prevent an accident even with an approved load.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

Pglasgow

Guess it all depends on the company... I normally do exactly the same thing but with my recent purchase of an Omega and the cleaning of it to get it ready for shooting, I noticed that the barrel was terribly smooth, it did not seem sharp at all. the cotton ball test down the barrel produced nothing. Like wise the new GM barrel that I recieved two weeks ago was smooth also. In both of these barrels I decided to not do the conical thing. In this case both barrels proved to be great when I shot them.

Other barrels have really seemed to be ruff and the conical treatment was in order. Think Triple Se7en is the person that started me on this technique.

good luck all...

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

since Iam a conical and roundball shooter, most my new rifles get broke in with maxi ball and roundball. Like Sabotloader said, the Green Mountain Barrels I bought so far were smooth and ready to shoot. I did still do the J-B bore paste on them if for no other reason then to make sure it was nice and clean before I started. The new CVA Stalker coming has a 1-32 twist so I will be shooting conical out of it anyway.

Good point though. I never thought of it the way you put it.

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

I have a Beartooth Magnum in 45cal. the barrel is
very smooth. The most pronounced thing I noticed
was the depth of the lands & grooves. With the
cotton-ball test it passed. But I only shoot 100gr.
charges because I've heard the horror stories about
the barrel. I have a Knight 50cal American, barrel
is extremely rough lands & grooves are not as
pronounced as the Beartooth probably due to the
method used to machine the barrel. I have a new
Omega 50cal. I had to use the J&B bore paste
method to smooth out the rough spots. I understand
what you refer to about the pressure. My take is
you shouldn't buy a Yugo and expect it to drive
like a Rolls :D I agree with sabotloader & others
people have got to "READ & UNDERSTAND" the
owners manual. So they understand just exactly
the process of toughing off a powder charge. &
just how "DEADLY" that situation can quickly
become. Just my 2-cents........
Danny

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

Another safety post worth readin'!

http://www.huntamerica.com/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=720025&an=0& page=0#720025

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

UC

And that goes exactly to the root of the problem.... the nut operating the gun. If you read and choose not to follow the directions, is it the guns fault, Spanish barrel or not? I have a CVA Firebolt that I bought several years ago, becuase it looked good, felt good and was a give away at Wal-Mart. I for years fired 100/110 grains of T7-2f pushing a 300 grain sabot. It handled this load without a problem, and most know I shoot a lot.I have made other mistakes with it shooting some large .458 Hornady saboted bullets. Again the rifle has shown no ill effects of this abuse. I also did spend a lot of time taking care of the gun. But none-the-less if something had gone wrong it would not be the guns manufactures fault, it would have been my own block head mistakes...

Actually the only gun I have not heard of a blow-up or out has been a an Austin & Halleck - which does have a Spanish barrel. It seems everybody elsehas had a least one. Both of my A&H's have the same proofing mark from the same proofing house as do the CVA and the Traditions.

I would and will agree with whomever provided this quote " if you buy a Yugo don't expect a Cadillac" If you choose to purchase a Spanish made barrel follow the directions it will serve you for years- heck that isn't exactly true either - if you shoot a weapon made by anyone follow the the directions...

Back in the day when I reloaded ammo for myself and many other people, I did follow directions, because i was afraid of the results if I chose to boost the charge beyond the suggested weight - why would anyone assume that BP or it's substitutes would be any different - follow the plan - and if you do not - do not blame the gun.

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

The only barrel I have seen blown up was by some guy shooting smokeless out of a side lock. I am sure other accident occure but I have not heard any reports of people being hurt in NH by m/l arms. I think there is more hype than actual hurt about our sport.

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

I actually believe these incidents are happening more then we, the muzzleloading community, are aware of. I base this belief on a couple things. We are dealing with an explosive and not everyone who handles these items do so in a safe manner. Also there are people that simply do not take all the necessary steps such as reading a manual or what ever, and do unsafe acts. Not all of these incident may be serious, some very simple, but still something that should not have happened. What happens most times I believeis the person(s) involved with the incident contacts the store they purchased the rifle fromor the manufacturer and after that it is a mad rush to create damage control.

I've seen a lot of deals made by the legal community and believe me, when there is something that happens which might effect a company image, or even have implications of a law suit, these companies legal teams come down on the offended or injured party with amazing speed. And then,the promises and pay offs begin. In almost all cases there is a clause in the final settlement that nothing can be discussed or details disclosed.

So while we may be upset because we hear of an incident happening but for reasons can not learn the facts, there may be many more incidents out there that we never hear of at all.

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

I disagree, the press for the most part hates shooting sports and if someone is hurt by a firearm of any type it makes news. A m/l to them is more dirty laundrey.

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

cayugad

10-4

+ there is a certain amount of people that will look for a big settlement from some companies by creating these accidents. Such as is being claimed by Savage and their followers against Toby Bridges.

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

Hey Mike,

Who is Toby Bridges?

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

Pglasgow

Toby Bridges was the leading spokesman for Savage for several years. He hasa web site High Performance Muzzleloading. He is the person that was shooting the Savage that blew up. Then general accepted thought by Savage and their supporters is that Toby did the deed on purpose, caused the blow up by obstructing the barrel. He was complaining about the design of the new Savage breech plug and again the belief is that he was trying to force Savage to change the design maybe back to the original Henry Ball design.

I really do not know what is the truth, what Toby says or what the company says. The best part is it really does not matter to me because I do not own a Savage ML and if I did I wouldn't be shooting smokeless anyway.

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/

Hope this helps...

If you are really bored here is some interesting reading....

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=84969

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

I too think alot of people out there tend to disreguard the proper procedures for using a black powder rifle. Manuals are provided with rifles for a reason. I guess some people dont think its necessary to read them. I saw a guy beating the ramrod of his rifle against the range pole trying to push a sabot down the barrel. I asked him how many times he had shot it and he said twelve and that was without cleaning at all. Theres an accident waiting to happen. Would that be the companies fault? I dont think so.Even If they do read the manual, there is still a time when some peoplefeel they must experiment with something along the way,not knowing what the outcome may be. This is where I think most accidents happen. Ive noticed posts on herewhere people using rifles that specify not to use FFFg powders where using them and the manuals do not list them as safe to use.
Im sure there are incidents involving alot of the brands out there but all are not heard of. Alot of settlements from Big companies involve paperwork that require the injured not to speak of the facts of the case to anyone(confidentiality clause). Money will make anything go away.If the consumer could access the cases and files of the major manufacturers in ledigation for consumer injury due to product failure, he might get some big surprises. I dont think the Spain made rifles would be in a class by themselves. I cant understand why someone would trust an Austin & Halleck and speak highly of them but not a Traditions or CVA. I had one and it was made in Spain and the only difference I saw was the difference in price and some cosmetic features. I read the instructions and feel if I do something wrong it is my fault. IfI followed what the manual said and an incident occurs then it is the company who made the rifles faultor there may be a problem with the brand of propellent. Maybe some of the accidents with foreign guns were operator error and we allow this to affect what we buy in the future. Maybe some companies are better covering up accidents of poor quality or stupdity of the operatorthan others. We should think on that for awhile. Ever heard the saying "what you dont know wont hurt you".

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

Thanks Mike,

You jogged my memory. I've spent alot of time at hpmuzzleloading.com, i just could notplace his name. To be honest, I feel that the savage blow-up couldn't possibly result from a leaky breech plug. When I read his report, i immediately questioned the authenticity. But like you said, "who knows?"

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

About whether one would deliberately obstruct a barrel and put it to his shoulder to discharge it . . .

I am reminded of when my Dad, who owned a .45 over/under muzzleloader got a ball stuck half way down one of the barrels. He was, at the time clueless as to how to get it out. Finally, after some thought, he decided to attempt to discharge it.

HE DID NOT SHOULDER THE WEAPON.

He took the gun to our back yard range. He propped it so that it would discharge into the backstop and then sand-bagged it in. Using 20 some odd feet of wire, laying on his stomach, he pulled and the gun discharged.
I can't rememberif the ball came out the barrel. What I do remember, is that the partthe nipple attaches to, (it screwed in from the side), was blown clean off the barrel, and to this day, the over/under is a single shot.

Afterwards,he purchased a worm to retreive stuck projectiles, but I don't think he ever needed it.

I just wanted to make the point, that if Toby wanted to blow up hisSavage, it isn't a necessary requirement to shoulder the weapon in order to discharge it.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

Pglasgow

Agreed but form his dicussion and the picture of the side of his face I would say he was cuddled up on the stock - but then again he could have faked the condition of the side of his face also...

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

He has help me personally a couple of time,and I believe him. If you don't then the records of the trip to the hospital and the records they are required to keep over any incident involving a gun should be a matter of record; medical people are very carful about such things. Lee

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

Oh . . . I don't think I'd go as far as to suspect him of that, not that it is out of the realm of possibility.

I have yet to figure out why Savage Armshas approved such fast powders for their muzzleloader. It seems to me, that slow powders designed for use in big bores would be better and safer too. Actually, I have figured it out. Everyone wants their muzzleloader to be a 250 yard flat shooter just like a high powered rifle. Fast Powders accomodate that. The pricethough beingmuch higher pressures.

With all this talk about the Savage withstanding tests to 150,000 psi, I could definitely see someone likeToby loading his Savage to pressures of 60,000+ psi in an attempt to get 2800 fps 300 grainprojectiles.Its the kind of thing an envelope pusher might do, justifying it by naively supposing the gun is good to 150,000 psi.

I am an engineer.And I would like to say that a Savage 10 MLwhich weathers a 60,000 psi load once, twice, or even a dozen times, may notdosomuch longer.There is such a phenomenon known as fatigue. Whenmetal isstressed repeatedat high ratios ofits elasticity, it hasashorter useful life. Themetal becomes brittle anddevelops microscopic fractures. Eventually, it will fail.Even a .50 BMGis designed to operate around 50,000 psi. A Savage may be the safest muzzleloader made, but it can be unsafe is used unwisely.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Safety with Spanish and American Barrels in general
 

Let me clarify. I am not a practicing engineer. I have bachelor's degree in petroleum engineering and did practice in the past.

Happy Hunting, Phil