Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

Have any of you guys wondered where muzzleloading is headed? I mean for me I have been a long time hunter, Mostly rifle and recurve but last year I wanted to get into muzzleloading.

So I bought a Traditions Pursuit LT and it was a good muzzleloader. Which I decided to sell only a few mths after I got it because I wanted something a little more traditional like a t/c hawkens.

Anyways what I am trying to get is when it comes to modern muzzleloaders the range of them keeps increasing and to me it seems that if I wanted to hunt with something can take down a deer out to 200-250yrds I would use my rifle. When I think of going hunting with a muzzleloader I think of getting close not as close as hunting with a bow but within 75yrdsand less at most 100yrds with open sights andwearing my buckskins and coyote fur hat and charcol on my face.

Please remember that I am not trying to pi$$ anyone of or offend anybody, I was just curious what everyones views are.

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

I think, pretty much where we want it to. Our demand drives the supply.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

While I understand and can even commend your position of wanting to do things the old way, with the older technology of the cap or flintlock rifles, there is nothing wrong with another person wanting to use the more modern technology. This is a personal decision only the hunter can make in accordance to the laws of the State.

If the State feels that inline rifles should be allowed, they do so. If they want sabots allowed, they permit those projectiles as well. Many States restrict caliber requirements andfor instance do not allow optics. It is up to the State to set the requirements of what is considered a legal muzzleloader. What it all boils down to is, even the inline rifles are muzzleloaders still.

I think you will see many States (and some already are) restrict certain muzzleloaders, projectiles, and powdersfrom the playing field if you may. My attitude is, if it is legal in the State, then the hunter has to make their own choice of which weapon best suits their needs.

Personally I have no desire to put on buckskins and charcoal my face to hunt like my forefathers although I can see the appeal. If today I want to shoot and hunt with an inline rifle, then I carry that. If instead I want a cap or flintlock, I arm myself with that. You could even see me in the woods with a smoothbore rifle. All of them are legal in my State. Still, I would never criticize or think less of someone who joins me in the huntand who carries a Omega for instance or a LT Pursuit. I am not out there competing with the next guyor trying to convince someone that I am a superior hunter because I use older technology. I am only being me, and doing what brings me the greatest enjoyment.

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

snowman69

You know for me and i do use inlines during the regular rifle season and sidelocks during the ML season... to me anyway it is the challenge... even with a modern ML it does not come close to matching the performance of my 270 or 300 win mag.

The challenge... the variables that i have to factor in to make the shots I need to make. Taking a 200 even 300 yard shot with a modern rifle is not a problem - any 200 yard shot with a ML is filled with variables - can I beat the variables? that is the question.

It is my contention even the most modern ML, excluding the smokeless Savage and the monster ml's, are really no more potent than a 308 in most instances.

Another contention, I think?, hunting the west is a lot different than hunting in the east... I really envy you guys with the number of tags you can get an the length of your seasons. Your tree houses and your food plots. Here we are hunting at 5,000 ft in the mountains with all the up/down drafts - swirling winds - just makes the challenge greater. I remember when I was younger hunting on the river breaks - 200 yard shots across the canyon at a muley was the norm - not the exception. ML's can not match that performance. 3000 fps second shots are common... I do not think we are there yet with ML's

Hunting like our fore-fathers did really doesn't exist in Idaho - the animals are way to scarce. The habitat has been severely changed by logging, man and enviromental damage... things are not the same.

now while I do use a modern inline with a modern projectile and I would not mind having a Savage - I just do not see myself using smokelss nor any of those big guns..

what do ya think???

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

Where I hunt in Arizona scoped inlines are legal so I use my Omega with a scope. I put in for antlerless elk muzzleloader most of the time as it is the best chance of getting drawn. I am basically a meat hunter as I do not eat supermarket meat unless it is organic or certified free of all the crap they feed the feedlot animals. I still limit my shots to 100 yards or maybe 110 but most of the time I get shots at between 80 and 100 yards. I did not get drawn last year and my supply is getting low so I am hoping for a good draw this year. I also am envious of the posts I see where the guys back east shoot several deer a season. I have not been drawn for deer in over 10 years (Mule deer in the desert tend to be a bit gamey anyway). I much prefer Elk. I have several traditional rifles including one flintlock but when hunting I use the most efficient rifle that is legal.

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

I think muzzleloading firearm technology is about as far as it can go now. There may be minor improvements in the designs like what T/C did to the Encore (breechplug and such), but the actions availible are pretty well set (we may see minor variations).I do believe we'll see still cleaner burning powders and better designed muzzleloading bullets and sabots. It's possible that I'm wrong though, there may be a ways yet to go.

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

Since nobody has said any thing about us elder people. I tend to think if we had to go back to open sights only seasons, many older hunters would give it up. I wouldbecauseI do not feel comfortable at making a clean killing shot on a deer at even 25 yards with open sights. Even glasses can not fix our older eye sight enough to shoot with comfadence.
I'll use what ever ML falls with in the laws of my state where I can mount a scope or peep sight on my rifle.
I personally think there is some major changes in actions to comein the future, better metals and higher charges of powder for longer ranges. The range wars are already an on going thing.
I myself wonder how a fully rifled barrel can be called a shot gun????????? This isn't to make any body mad either, just wondering.
:)Al

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

alleyyooper

I did not realize they could. If there is rifling they are a rifle. The closest you might get to it is a rifled musket, but even that technically has a twist in the bore as I understand it. And I do not think they are recommend to shoot actual shot. They might be loaded with buck and ball though.

I hunt with a smoothbore rifle. A smoothbore rifle is technically a shotgun because there is no twist or riflingin the bore. It gets the name rifle because of the fact they put a rifled type sights on it instead of a bead on the end and making the shooter use the sight plain of the barrel.

I also understand your concern over the use of optics. We are not allowed any magnification on our rifles during muzzle loader season. One of my rifles has a red dot but I feel comfortable with that to about 75 yards. Another has a peep sight which is a great aiming device out to 100 yards. The fiber optics make sighting also much easier but the plain of flat wide front sight I admit does give me some problems at long distances.

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

I threw the shot gun comment in because it has always baffled me asbeing legal in Southern Michigan's zone one where the use of center fire rifles are not allowed during fire arm deer season.
The bolt acton fully rifled shot gun is very popular as id the (?)HR model break open models.

:)Al

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

I am mostly a deer hunter!!!! That said I love toshoot black powder more then shotgun, bow or smokless powder rifle. It is such a great feeling when you can put a bullet and powder combo together for the results you want is unbeliveable. And when you can take those results and harvest a deer with it. Itis even the greatest high there is. Who needs dope or booze when we have this. Anyway I want to use what ever helps me cleanly and most effectivly (legal) harvest a deer. Scoped, inline, sabots, clean powder,209 caps do it for me. Fun is fun but again I am a deer hunter first, and above all , and my ethics rest with my commitment of a clean quick and humane kill. And I think reaching that gole supports the use of the most advance technolegies. Thats my 2 cents Mike

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

Where is our sport going? As far as the buying public
will allow it to. I respect the guy who will put on
his buckskins & charcoal. But in reality, there are some
that want the "MAGNUM" powder charge, the super
duper technically treated teflon sabots and projectiles
straight from "NASSA". And they are as much as
part of our sport as the primative hunter.
Modern Muzzleloading is a supply & demand billion
dollar business. So where is it going?? I'm not sure,
but where ever it goes, we need to assure that
clean, humane, kills with the ut-most in hunter ethetics
doesnt fall by the way side.

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

There are times when I think that same thing. People are putting scopes on their muzzleloaders and now there are even muzzleloaders using smokeless powder. I respect all of your opinions though and what you use and think.

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

I think the rifles in designhave went about as far as they can other then their powder charge capabilities. You might see some breech plug modifications, maybe even some progression in the type of sights. There are some good sights out there but they are out of the average shooters price range. I think they will come down in price and become part of the muzzleloading market as well. I am sure smokeless rifles will enter the market. How popular they will become is another thing.

The place where I think real strides will come is in projectile design. I think everyone out there is looking how to capture the bullet market. Powerbelt started out in the conical department, and the XTP did great in the projectile department.

You might also see bigger and better optics in the future. Yet remember, a lot of this will be controlled by the State Laws we encounter. I would not be surprised if it turned and went just the other way, back to the flintlocks and percussion lock rifles only with roundball.

There really is no telling, but it will be fun to see what happens.

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

Thanks for all the opinions guys this was all I was looking to get out of this post(everyones views). Just remember that I was not trying to knock down anyone for there choice in gear. I believe that you shoot what you want and what you are most comfortable with and ofcourse what you enjoy because in the end that's what it is all about, weather it be an omega or a renegade.

For me other than hunting/fishing my favorite thing to do is go to the local rendezvous and live like they did in the mid 1800's.So the buckskins and fur hat is fun for me, but I am not saying because I do it everyone has to, so please nobody take like that( I didn't mean for it to sound like that, if it did).

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

I hope it goes where each and everyone of us wants it go. I don't see why it can't within the limitations of the state laws. No hunting sport is more versatile than muzzleloading. A muzzleloaderis so many different guns, it justdepends on who owns it. Thatswhat is so great about muzzleloading, at least in my way of thinking.

Frankly, I don't like hunting rights to berestricted except by ethics and harvest objectives.In that sense, I think if one group tries to limit another's access to hunting privilege simply becausethe other's choice of weapon or projectile differs from their own, then that is bad forour sport and hunting in general. That said, I don't mind a special primitive hunt either, provided, its not primitive hunters lobbying for it as means to impose their preference on others. If the state is trying to acheive a particular harvest objective while giving more access to the privilege of hunting a primitive season, then I am behind it 100 percent. Shoot, I don't mind imposing the use of sabots and scopes in muzzleloading season, if the objective is to increase harvest.

Let's face it.Inmany states, we simply can't keep up with herd growth. Year after year, harvest objectivesfail to be achieved. I know this to be the case in my home state of Oklahoma. I have a sense it is the same in many other states. Provided a hunter harvests his game in a humane manner, with a capable weapon, I just don't think one can ask for any more, whether one's choice is roundball, conical, sabot, whatever.

You know, I haven't fired a sabot in many years, unless you want to call a patch a sabot. Even so, I am delighted I could hunt with them during regular rifle season here, if I so chose. I want to be able to use whatever, and go down the path of whereever, and do it within the ethical guidelines we as hunters consider to be ethical and responsible hunting and harvesting.

Personally, hunting privilege is so limited for deer in Colorado for muzzleloading season, I don't bother to apply for muzzleloading season. I just want to be able to pursue my sport along with everyone else during the rifle season. In that sense, the question could be asked, "Where is rifle season going in Colorado?". The answer may be that is going the way of muzzleloading in all its various expressions, being brought there by people who chose to take their muzzleloaders to the field. In my way of thinking, thats a good thing for our sport.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

Well, I think it will go where the majority send it, we control it by what we buy and what we demand from our law makers. The conservation people do a good job in most states, I would have said all before I moved to AR and they will make the changes necessary to keep a good deer herd if that CWD don't wipe out all of them. Lee

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

One thing we should have figured out by now is that you can't stop technology. It's kind of funny to see some of you guys saying that muzzleloading has gone as far as it can when you think about recent advances (if you think they are advances) in bullets, powder, and now even a Savage muzzleloader that uses smokeless powder. I think we are far from done with new technologies in muzzleloading.

Frankly, I got into muzzleloading because it extends my hunting season by another 3 weeks. I would not have done it if it meant using a flintlock. Not to say that I won't eventually go there, but I think for a lot of people more technology means more options which means more hunters. Just because you have an option to use a "modern" muzzleloader doesn't mean you have to. So I say use whatever weapon you want, just hunt.

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

danowak: I was thinking the same thing about "it's gone about as far as it can go."
I wonder if people haven't thought that about many things in the past. At one time, a car that went 45 mph was considered "breakneck speed". Who would have thought 100 years ago that medical technology would allow all the surgeries & procedures that are done routinely today, etc, etc.
I'd say that the sport will continue to evolve, and it's hard to say where it will stop - if it does.

jaybe :)

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

I don't much mind the shotgun rule in the lower part. I just use my muzzle loader. It's more accurate than my rifle is.

Tom

RE: Where is it headed (not to start an argument)
 

Here in Oregon the regulations covering ML hunting are moving back to traditional. Guns must have open ignition systems where the cap is exposed and not covered by any part of the gun before firing. Sights must be open or peep and no sights that enhance ,gather ,or concentrate natural light.Sights must be made of metal,alloys or plastic. Illegal to hunt with jacketed bullets, sabots ,and bullets with plastic or synthetic bases. Round ball and conical lead alloy bullets with a length that does not exceed twice the diamitere ,and paper or felt patches are allowed. No center fire primers (209), #11caps and musket caps only as well as flint. No pelletized powders or propellants can be used ,only granular (loose) are legal propellants. No revolving actions or more than one barrel my be used. Over the last years they have moved this way with reducing the allowable new stuff. But they have added a number of new ML hunts each year. So if your OK with traditional guns than your doing well in Oregon. For my self and those I hunt with we have been using the old school guns for over 20 years and love it.