RE: Powerbelts at lower velocities?
 

Thanks for the suggestion Lee. How would the recoil relate to 12 guage? 1 1/2 times? How heavy is the Omega?

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Powerbelts at lower velocities?
 

I don't know how fast it shoots, but when we ran out of 300 grain XTPs, I tried a 295 grain PB in my kids T/C Black Diamond figuring the poi would be about the same. The load is 75 grains of 777 which should be about the same as 86 grains of pyrodex. The barrel is about 3 1/2 inches shorter than a stock Black Diamond as the gun has been modified for my kids. I thought the same thing, lower velocities would be better, figuring that between the low powder charge and short barrel, we would be pretty slow. As far as accuracy, they shoot fine 1 to 2 inch groups at 100 yards. But, we still got an explosive fragmentation result on the bullet when it hit a deer.

I think that bullet construction is the biggest problem w/ the power belts. They are nothing more than a copper plated conical. They need to do three things for folks shooting modern inline guns to make the bullet have better terminal performance. Thicken the copper jacket to hold the bullet together, make the "hollow point" smaller, make the lead out of a tougher alloy. Then, I think you would get the best of both worlds, accuracy and terminal performance.
R
Hank

RE: Powerbelts at lower velocities?
 

The Omega is a Z5 I think it weighs about 7 pounds;with 90 or 100 gr powder and a 200 gr SWI say its closer to a 16 with a heavy load or a 12 with a light load. My 14 year old Great Grand Son shot it and told his dad he ought to learn to deer hunt.
Could even buy your sabots and bullets in bulk and use a 155 or a 180 I have a friend on and other forum that shoots the 180 [40 cal]with a 120 load of Pistol Pyrodex he says its real good.
Lee

RE: Powerbelts at lower velocities?
 

If the data I got from CVA is right the Powerbelts are made to work well in a 48 twist rifle as well because they are full bore. If you are useing a faster twist gun just try going to a heavier Powerbelt and see if it fixes your problem. Or better yet a light .45cal in a sabot.

I am not sure most rifles are made to shoot at some standard velosity and if you do not get to the min it may not shoot well.

RE: Powerbelts at lower velocities?
 

I have had some of the same thoughts . . . . maybe they should make a "magnum" powerbelt. A little antimony in the lead to allow it to obturate properly at higher speeds; and maybe a smaller hollow point to control expansion.

RE: Powerbelts at lower velocities?
 

I remember your thread on this issue, but I don't remember the details of the shot it self. I would be interested in knowing the range of the deer, and the bullets path.

I do have a sense that the lighter powerbelts work best double lung where the bullet has less to deal with getting to vitals.Even so, 75 grains of triple 7 (if equivalent to86 Pyrodex)will give at least 33% more energy to the bullet than I am planning this load for. I am going to be shooting Pyrodex RS tomorrow, my sense is that Im going to need 65 grains to propel the 295 to approx 1375 fps. If so, I figure 75 grains T7propels the 295PB to aMV of about 1585.

My sense is the hollowpointcomes in handy at 1250 fps and below. The load I'll be testing will be below 1250 fps outside of 50 yards. I am curious to knowhow close the deer was when you encountered the fragmentation. If the velocity of the bullet exceeded1400 fps(drgildy's 60 yard pass through shot, then we may get an idea of where the line gets crossed.

Thanks for your comments, hank.

Happy hunting, Phil

RE: Powerbelts at lower velocities?
 

Alot of pistol bullets have Brinnell hardnessranging from 15 to 25. Pure lead, I think isaround 12. I don't know if Brinnell hardness relates proportionatelyto stress required to begin plastic deformation, but if it does, then pressures must increase proportionately to produce the forces (stresses) whichcause the obturation.

This load produces pressures in the 7000 psi range and at peak pressure would produce stresses in the 7000 psi range in the projectile. If it is insufficient, and 10,000 psi is necessary (hank's load) then doubling the stresses required to obturate, means minimum peak pressures of 20,000 psi. Even so, none of these unjacketed pistol bullets are recommended for use at "magnum velocities". So it seems, that even harder than 25 Brinnel Powerbelts would not be practical as thepressures needed to obturate them mayexceed maximum loads.

I really like pure lead bullets, but they do have their limitations.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Powerbelts at lower velocities?
 

This particular shot was about 45 or 50 yards if memory serves me right. It was a quartering shot with the shoulder towards us. Normally, I only let my kids take clean broadside shots behind the shoulder (double lung) but this was a situation that I had the time to work with him and talk him through the shot placement. The shot hit him in front of the front left shoulder, almost the lower neck. Bullet path took it through the meat in the lower neck, no bones, through the heart lung area and exited in the last rib area. There were two or three fairly large holes and the one large chunk just under the skin. Basically no bone contact. The deer didn't take a step. My problem with performance like this is that had the shot hit the outside of the shoulder, I don't think there would have been penetration into the heart/lung area and an ugly, nonfatal wound to the deer. Like I said, I think the power belt is a good concept, just needs some tweeking.
R
Hank

RE: Powerbelts at lower velocities?
 

Hey Hank,

Thanks for sharing this information. The velocity at point of impact was in the neighborhood of 1400 fps +-40 fps. Given that, the depth of penetration, path through substantial muscle flesh before reaching vitals, the performance seems, to me at least,on par withwhatone can expect from a lead hollowpoint.

I think you are right on this. The powerbelt hollowpoint, 295 grains and under, is really a double lung projectile. Used this way, at POI velocities below 1400 fps, I don't think one will have trouble with the 295's.

The image of hankpassing on his experiencetohis son is heartwarming to me. I have so many great memories hunting with my Dad. Thanks also for sharing this also.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Powerbelts at lower velocities?
 

My understanding is pure lead runs 5-6 on the BIN scale. Wheel Weights which are often used to mold roundballs and such run 15-18 BIN because of tin I believe. Then you get into the Linotype and such or x-ray lead and it can get wild.

I personally do not shoot anything but as pure a lead as possible in muzzleloaders. Especially in conicals as they will lead the bore terrible if the BIN is too strong (according to a reloading friend of mine). The reason I like pure lead is you get a lot of expansion and less fragmentation as lead seems to hold together real well.