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Muzzle Loading
In 2004 was my first year to use a ML. Knight in-line, MK-50, older but a gift. Anyway, wasn't real impressed with ML, seems more complicated then most of the hunting I have done and never got it sighted in. The primer would fire but the powder wouldnt ignite, tried cleaning the bore, and the nipple, etc, there at the range, after the third time, I went home, thought about dropping the gun into the river. However, don't really have anyone to help or mentor. Guy at the stored said bore butter would work. So what is the right way to use a ML, step by step, load shoot, and then what? [&:]
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RE: Muzzle Loading
Sounds like you should just send it to me and I will dispose of it for you. Too much trouble for sure! LOL. Either I or some of the other guys that know more than I will give you some instruction. Don't have time right now except to say that the gun need to be cleaned really, really well before you take it back out to shoot. Both the barrel and the breech plug. More later.
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RE: Muzzle Loading
JLmoore1956
Bad timing on my part looking at this post just before I have to go to work. Bore Butter probably is not the answer to you problem. It may actually help cause your problem. Bore butter is a good product if it is used correctly. But first give us a little more information, what type of ignition were you using? - I assuming #11 caps, what type of powder? old powder new powder - what type of projectile? conical - sabot -prb? The cleaning process can be a long dury process, but once you master it - it becomes like riding a bike. If the gun is new to you and/or has not been used in recent times - best to really clean it well. I have a process that i use and each of us has developed a process we each use. Mine sounds rather lengthly. There is a step in it which i do your BB so often people disagree but it certainly works for me. If you are interested I will try to get it up tonight after school and errands. Cayugad has his process memorized so he will undoubtedly get his posted before I am able to and it is a good one - I just add one more step. Good luck - cause once you get the rifle shooting you will really enjoy it - it really gets addictive. |
RE: Muzzle Loading
ORIGINAL: JLmoore1956 In 2004 was my first year to use a ML. Knight in-line, MK-50, older but a gift. Anyway, wasn't real impressed with ML, seems more complicated then most of the hunting I have done and never got it sighted in. The primer would fire but the powder wouldnt ignite, tried cleaning the bore, and the nipple, etc, there at the range, after the third time, I went home, thought about dropping the gun into the river. However, don't really have anyone to help or mentor. Guy at the stored said bore butter would work. So what is the right way to use a ML, step by step, load shoot, and then what? [&:] If the primer was going off then you have half the battle won. First thing you need to do is clean all the bore butter and other oils and crud out of the rifle, the breech plug, the nipple, everything. Really break the rifle down and clean it good. I am guessing it is a .50 caliber MK-85 which was and still is one of the best muzzleloaders Knight ever made. Start each shoot with a clean, back to metal clean rifle. To get the oils out of the rifle I take a patch and put alcohol on it. I then swab the barrel with that patch. The alcohol will remove the gun oils and dust that have collected in there. After the alcohol patch, run a dry patch down the rifle bore. This is to make sure every thing is good and dry. Now put a #11 cap on the nipple and fire that through the rifle. This will blow out any oil that might have collected in the nipple and the breech plug. I usually fire three #11 caps through the nipple for this purpose. Before shooting the last of the caps, put a clean dry patch on the ramrod and push that to the bottom of the breech. Now fire the last #11 cap and pull the patch. It should show burn marks.If it does you are ready to load the rifle. If it does not, there is something blocking the breech plug and you need to do a better job of cleaning. Lets assume the patch had burn marks on it. Now consider your powder. How old is the powder you are trying to shoot? Also since this is a older model Knight shooting most likely a #11 cap, use loose powder, no pellets for this one. If the powder is old or you have any doubts about it, replace it with new powder. To test the old powder take some tin foil and place it outside on a flat surface. Put about 5 to10 grains of powder on the tin foil and with a long nose lighter, set it off. (make sure there is not gun powder around when you do this) It should flash real fast. If it does not, it might be old, might be damp, a number of things. If you doubt your powder replace it. So you dump the new powder down it.. about 85-100 grains and put a 240 or 300 grain XTP on that rifle, cap it, it should fire. The main thing is keep the bore butter out of the barrel or at least make sure you remove all traces of the stuff before you try to load the rifle. Start the rifle on a clean oil and other free barrel with a clean dry breech plug and nipple and there is no reason why it should not fire. Here is my list of what I do when I get a new rifle and want to shoot it. If it says 209 ignition, in your case I am sure it would be a #11 cap. If I were in your shoes.... #1 unpack the rifle and look it over. #2 read the manual cover to cover until you UNDERSTAND the contents of it #3 clean the rifle including all parts #4 use a quality breech plug grease and grease the threads of the breech plug then screw the breech plug back in to the rifle finger tight only... do not crank on that plug. In fact after I put them in finger tight, I then turn them back about an 1/8th of a turn. You are now ready to prepare to shoot the rifle #5 swab the barrel of the rifle with a patch with some alcohol on it. #6 push a dry patch to the bottom of the barrel on a jag and fire a 209 primer into that patch. Then pull the patch and check it to make sure the fire from the primer is coming through the breech plug into the barrel #7 shoot off three more 209 primers. This will make sure the breech plug is clean and also put a light fowling in the barrel for you. You are now ready to load the rifle #8 measure out and place 100 grains of powder in the rifle in pellet or loose form, pouring or dropping this down the barrel. #9 put the correct size projectile in to the correct size sabot and place that sabot into the crown of the muzzle. This is where I take a wad of patch material, put it over the nose of the projectile and push the projectile under the crown of the muzzle with my thumb. The patch material is more for the benefit of my thumb and not the projectile. #10 with the long end of your short starter push the projectile into the bore of the rifle #11 with your correct loading jag attached to the end of your range rod or ramrod push the projectile in as smooth a downward fashion as possible until you feel the projectile hit the powder charge. Make sure the projectile is seated firmly on the powder charge. #12 leaving your ramrod still in the barrel of the rifle resting on the projectile, take a piece of masking tape and wrap the tape even to the end of the muzzle around your ramrod. This is called the Witness Mark and every time you load the rifle with the same powder charge and projectile you should reach this mark where the tape will be level to the muzzle of the rifle. With the Witness mark now in place on the ramrod #13 REMOVE THE RAMROD FROM THE BARREL OF THE RIFLE #14 place a 209 shotgun primer on the breech plug of the rifle located at the breech end of the barrel. #15 With a target at 25 or 50 yards fire your first shot of out of the rifle #16 take a patch with a cleaning solution and using a bore brush or cleaning jag on the end of a second ramrod preferably which you will use for swabbing the barrel only, run a wet patch down the barrel. When swabbing the barrel run the patch in short strokes starting at the muzzle. I like to run about four inches at a time in a back and fourth motion, increasing the length of the stroke and patch until I am finally all the way to the breech end of the rifle. #17 run one or two dry patches down the barrel again in short strokes running from the muzzle to the breech to dry all the moisture out of the barrel. This will also remove extra fowling #18. It is a good idea to take your time here. I like to swab the barrel clean, and then walk to the target and check the target before I even load the next shot. This gives the barrel time to cool. It also gives you time to calm down, relax and consider what you might have done right or wrong. #19 now load your rifle in the exactsame manner as you did the first time. Make sure you reach your witness mark. Aim for the same spot on the target as you did the first time. Do not adjust your point of aim because of where your first shot hit. Try and hold the rifle the same as you did the first time, with the same sight picture, and fire the second shot. #20 After seven to ten shots on the range take your breech plug wrench and just twist the breech plug back and fourth. You do not have to remove it. All you are doing is making sure that the breech plug is not seizing in the breech. And wipe off any excess fowling on the breech plug or that area with isopropyl alcohol on a patch or Q-tip #21 After you have fired a few shots check the size of the group you are getting. If you are satisfied with it, great. You can decide if you want to increase/decrease the powder charge at this point, adjust the sights or scope (which I do not recommend until you are really happy with the group you are shooting), or just keep shooting the same load having fun.... I am sure I forgot a lot of steps and ask other posters to help me out, and you out by correcting me here... this should get you moving on the range... |
RE: Muzzle Loading
No need for me to add anything after the last post, except don't be intimidated by the number of steps involved. Once you have done it a couple of times, they become second nature and you WILL become addicted. Just want to emphasize what was said already: use loose powder and be sure it is not too old. If in question, buy some new. Not that expensive.
Good luck! |
RE: Muzzle Loading
[8D]
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RE: Muzzle Loading
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RE: Muzzle Loading
[8D]
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RE: Muzzle Loading
Thanks that really helps. Can I send you a PM of email is better if I have more question, the army blocks things a lot and cant always get on here and ask questions or do what I need to do!
Jeff |
RE: Muzzle Loading
ORIGINAL: cayugad ORIGINAL: JLmoore1956 In 2004 was my first year to use a ML. Knight in-line, MK-50, older but a gift. Anyway, wasn't real impressed with ML, seems more complicated then most of the hunting I have done and never got it sighted in. The primer would fire but the powder wouldnt ignite, tried cleaning the bore, and the nipple, etc, there at the range, after the third time, I went home, thought about dropping the gun into the river. However, don't really have anyone to help or mentor. Guy at the stored said bore butter would work. So what is the right way to use a ML, step by step, load shoot, and then what? [&:] If the primer was going off then you have half the battle won. First thing you need to do is clean all the bore butter and other oils and crud out of the rifle, the breech plug, the nipple, everything. Really break the rifle down and clean it good. I am guessing it is a .50 caliber MK-85 which was and still is one of the best muzzleloaders Knight ever made. Start each shoot with a clean, back to metal clean rifle. To get the oils out of the rifle I take a patch and put alcohol on it. I then swab the barrel with that patch. The alcohol will remove the gun oils and dust that have collected in there. After the alcohol patch, run a dry patch down the rifle bore. This is to make sure every thing is good and dry. Now put a #11 cap on the nipple and fire that through the rifle. This will blow out any oil that might have collected in the nipple and the breech plug. I usually fire three #11 caps through the nipple for this purpose. Before shooting the last of the caps, put a clean dry patch on the ramrod and push that to the bottom of the breech. Now fire the last #11 cap and pull the patch. It should show burn marks.If it does you are ready to load the rifle. If it does not, there is something blocking the breech plug and you need to do a better job of cleaning. Lets assume the patch had burn marks on it. Now consider your powder. How old is the powder you are trying to shoot? Also since this is a older model Knight shooting most likely a #11 cap, use loose powder, no pellets for this one. If the powder is old or you have any doubts about it, replace it with new powder. To test the old powder take some tin foil and place it outside on a flat surface. Put about 5 to10 grains of powder on the tin foil and with a long nose lighter, set it off. (make sure there is not gun powder around when you do this) It should flash real fast. If it does not, it might be old, might be damp, a number of things. If you doubt your powder replace it. So you dump the new powder down it.. about 85-100 grains and put a 240 or 300 grain XTP on that rifle, cap it, it should fire. The main thing is keep the bore butter out of the barrel or at least make sure you remove all traces of the stuff before you try to load the rifle. Start the rifle on a clean oil and other free barrel with a clean dry breech plug and nipple and there is no reason why it should not fire. Here is my list of what I do when I get a new rifle and want to shoot it. If it says 209 ignition, in your case I am sure it would be a #11 cap. If I were in your shoes.... #1 unpack the rifle and look it over. #2 read the manual cover to cover until you UNDERSTAND the contents of it #3 clean the rifle including all parts #4 use a quality breech plug grease and grease the threads of the breech plug then screw the breech plug back in to the rifle finger tight only... do not crank on that plug. In fact after I put them in finger tight, I then turn them back about an 1/8th of a turn. You are now ready to prepare to shoot the rifle #5 swab the barrel of the rifle with a patch with some alcohol on it. #6 push a dry patch to the bottom of the barrel on a jag and fire a 209 primer into that patch. Then pull the patch and check it to make sure the fire from the primer is coming through the breech plug into the barrel #7 shoot off three more 209 primers. This will make sure the breech plug is clean and also put a light fowling in the barrel for you. You are now ready to load the rifle #8 measure out and place 100 grains of powder in the rifle in pellet or loose form, pouring or dropping this down the barrel. #9 put the correct size projectile in to the correct size sabot and place that sabot into the crown of the muzzle. This is where I take a wad of patch material, put it over the nose of the projectile and push the projectile under the crown of the muzzle with my thumb. The patch material is more for the benefit of my thumb and not the projectile. #10 with the long end of your short starter push the projectile into the bore of the rifle #11 with your correct loading jag attached to the end of your range rod or ramrod push the projectile in as smooth a downward fashion as possible until you feel the projectile hit the powder charge. Make sure the projectile is seated firmly on the powder charge. #12 leaving your ramrod still in the barrel of the rifle resting on the projectile, take a piece of masking tape and wrap the tape even to the end of the muzzle around your ramrod. This is called the Witness Mark and every time you load the rifle with the same powder charge and projectile you should reach this mark where the tape will be level to the muzzle of the rifle. With the Witness mark now in place on the ramrod #13 REMOVE THE RAMROD FROM THE BARREL OF THE RIFLE #14 place a 209 shotgun primer on the breech plug of the rifle located at the breech end of the barrel. #15 With a target at 25 or 50 yards fire your first shot of out of the rifle #16 take a patch with a cleaning solution and using a bore brush or cleaning jag on the end of a second ramrod preferably which you will use for swabbing the barrel only, run a wet patch down the barrel. When swabbing the barrel run the patch in short strokes starting at the muzzle. I like to run about four inches at a time in a back and fourth motion, increasing the length of the stroke and patch until I am finally all the way to the breech end of the rifle. #17 run one or two dry patches down the barrel again in short strokes running from the muzzle to the breech to dry all the moisture out of the barrel. This will also remove extra fowling #18. It is a good idea to take your time here. I like to swab the barrel clean, and then walk to the target and check the target before I even load the next shot. This gives the barrel time to cool. It also gives you time to calm down, relax and consider what you might have done right or wrong. #19 now load your rifle in the exactsame manner as you did the first time. Make sure you reach your witness mark. Aim for the same spot on the target as you did the first time. Do not adjust your point of aim because of where your first shot hit. Try and hold the rifle the same as you did the first time, with the same sight picture, and fire the second shot. #20 After seven to ten shots on the range take your breech plug wrench and just twist the breech plug back and fourth. You do not have to remove it. All you are doing is making sure that the breech plug is not seizing in the breech. And wipe off any excess fowling on the breech plug or that area with isopropyl alcohol on a patch or Q-tip #21 After you have fired a few shots check the size of the group you are getting. If you are satisfied with it, great. You can decide if you want to increase/decrease the powder charge at this point, adjust the sights or scope (which I do not recommend until you are really happy with the group you are shooting), or just keep shooting the same load having fun.... I am sure I forgot a lot of steps and ask other posters to help me out, and you out by correcting me here... this should get you moving on the range... thanks Jeff |
RE: Muzzle Loading
feel free to email or PM what every works best for you. Loose the pellets in that rifle and use some loose powder.I'm pretty sure that was your whole problem. #11 caps will fire pellets but not always. Loose powder will solve your troubles..Pyrodex RS or Triple Se7en 2f will work great in the rifle. I have a couple of knight rifles and they are both great shooters...
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RE: Muzzle Loading
It is #11 cap, looking to convert to 209 when I return from here.
What is the use of bore butter then? When should it be used and not used? Some of the not used is here, and i guess I didnt clean it well enough between shots. THe stuff that cayugad gave me will help 110% I am sure. Guess since it is a good one I will work with it. Was using the 777 pellets, but the loose powder i will try. Cant remember what exactly I was using for bullets, they were sabots, so I am also open to suggestions there. I probably should have done more research but it was a gift and yes I am a man, and I figured with directions and the range I could figure it out! Now I am anxious to go at it again. Should I use a scope or try open sights? |
RE: Muzzle Loading
JLmoore1956
cayugad's list is complete ad very thorough work by it when you can... #11's and T7 pellets is pretty marginal - It really takes a lot of heat to get them going and they do not have any BP on the pellet to help. If you choose to shoot pellets - you should probably go to Pyrodex pellets - they a have black powed impregnated on the base of each pellet to help get it started. If you can make the switch to loose powder I think yopu would be much happier and you would get consistent ignition even with #11's especially if they are CCI #11 Mags, but better yet might be Dynamite Noble 1075 plus caps... These fit the #11 nipple. Bullets and sabots is another game - That game is played by finding what combination your rifle prefers and what you might be hunting. I am hunting elk so my projectile is a lot heavier than you might need for hunting whitetail. Another segment which sabot can you get down your barrel comfortably - With a night you should be able to get a standard sabot bullet combination down. You have a great gun and with time you will enjoy it - but keep coming back here and asking questions if you do not have local help. If it were I and I could give you some help follow cayugad's instructions. As far as shooting supplies I would start as simple as I could get a few shots under your belt them start branching out... Pellets are the most simple way to start, but as much as I hate Pryodex they would be a good way to start - then get some easy loading PowerBelts bullets maybe 295 grain 50 cal. They are expensive but again a good simple way to start. After you feel confident in your ability to load and shoot swab the barrel. then start moving to a load and projectile that you really want to use. A lot of people do not like BButter in a gun and have very negative reactions to it's suggested use, so keep that in mind. Most of these people are great shooters and have established routines that work for them as mine does for me.- I do not use it as a lubricantor a protectant -it is not thateffective at either of these two thingunless you are shooting real black powder.BB does work with conicals. My barrel care routine is not on this computer so I will post this and send the the care routine in another post in the morning. Keep asking questions - and in the end you are the final authority... |
RE: Muzzle Loading
Should I use a scope or try open sights? I can't add anything to the original post, theother fellas have you well covered. You've got a good resource here, many experienced ML shooters so ask away. Best of luck and enjoy blowing smoke. |
RE: Muzzle Loading
Yes scopes are now legal in NY and I was using but I may try to get a combo working of powder and bullet and then go to the scope.
Thanks to everyone! [8D]:D |
RE: Muzzle Loading
JLmoore1956
I should have also said in there someplace do not use BB in your normal shooting routine (do not use it while shooting)- it can gum up the works OK I walked back to the other computer and his is my cleaning routine and an explanation I have tried to make clear several times... it is long I'm sorry about that.. I am a bore butter user have been using it for the six or seven years that I have been shooting ML's - inlines and sidehammers, and I shoot a lot. I really am not trying to recruit or stretch any of the tales at all either. I do not suffer the "crud ring" - plastic fouling - and/or very little powder fouling. I have never used a bronze bore brush in any of the ML's to remove anything. The bores feel glass smooth. Inserting sabots is a dream - not like Power Belts but no short starter required. I believe I am achieving very good accuracy for me with excellent velocities if my chrono is not lieing. I really believe it the manner in which you use BB that makes the difference. The most shinning demonstration I can relate to you all is in my trap guns. After a day of trap shooting my chokes would be ladened with black plastic fouling from the wads being constricted down at that point. On occasion I would even shoot a strip of plastic fouling out of the trap and it would float the the ground in front of me. This actually really use to concern me because I felt I might be affecting or changing the shot pattern through the day as I shot. I now treat my chokes with BB and I am sitting here looking at my Modified choke that has 225 rounds through it - I can see stainless steel all the way around the choke it is dark but it is not black - even the ports are semi clean. If you have a shotgun with screw in chokes that you have shot put a bit of BB on your little finger and rub it around in there - you will see what I mean the palstic melts off on to your finger. All of this said I will also say that I do not rely on BB as a lubricant or a bore protector or anything to do with "seasoning" - it's soul purpose in life is to reduce fouling - which I am convinced it does. I know with my ML's I can can shoot 4-5 shoots with out patching and without having a detrimental effect on accuracy. One of my goals this week end is take one of the sidehammers and one of the inlines out and see how many shots I can get off without patching... IF the downpour stops. As I said I feel the method of application is the difference. I know that a lot of you are going to be wildly against this but as people have so often said "if'n it is not broke don't fix it" so far it is not broke here in Idaho. Here is what I do: [align=center] Quote: Barrel Care: this is really a hot topic with a ton of different thoughts - you will develop your own care plan over time. The use of Bore Butter - I really believe it is a good product but I also believe there is right way and a wrong way to use it in modern day ML's not using real Black Powder. I almost hate to mention this because it is going to start up a huge discussion again.... I shoot sabots exclusively in 6 different ML guns and 4 different shot guns - 2 of them high quality trap guns. I do not get plastic fouling in any of the ML's and I now can also say I have reduced the plastic fouling in my shotgun chokes drastically. OK here is the dirty word "bore butter" I believe if it is applied in what I think is the correct method it really reduces fouling.... Example if you have a shot gun with screw chokes after you have shot several rounds through the choke take the choke out and look at it. It will black and streaky with plastic fouling - put a little BB on your finger and rub it around in the choke - you will really be surprised at what happens to the plastic fouling. My feelings are "how the bore butter is applied is the real key" - It should not be caked inside the barrel or added to the sabots as a lubricant, nor should it be used as a spit-patch. The ONLY time I use BB is in a HOT barrel after cleaning and when the barrel is dry. Apply BB to a cotton bore swab and run it down the barrel, the hotter the barrel the better, because the pores are wide open. When you pull the bore swab out you will not believe what has happen, the pores in the barrel will literally suck up the BB completely remove it from your brush. I do this a couple of times - then while the barrel is still warm dry patch it with a clean patch and get as much of the loose BB out as you can. After it has cooled repeat the patch process. The only BB that remains will be in the pores and a small amount trapped behind the lands. Your first shot will remove that also. The final step is to apply a light of coat of quality gun oil. What you have now is a clean and smooth barrel, I really would not use the words "a seasoned barrel" because it is not... what it is a smooth bore less prone to cause friction. This coating last for several rounds releasing a bit each time it is fired. Lots of people are going to disagree but that is what 6 years of experience has shown me and others. It is all in how you APPLY IT. Another thing I do not battle and I think it is again because of BB - I do not get the "crud ring" in any of my ML's and I use t7 loose powder with 209 ignition in the inlines and #11 on the sidehammers. Now, all of this is my opinion and your results may not be the same - BUT don't shoot the messenger - the non BB folks are a lot more vocal than the bb users. [/align] |
RE: Muzzle Loading
sabotloader: do you heat the barrel by pouring hot water ON it, or IN it, or both (or some other way)?
I can see that your application of the BB is very different from just leaving a layer or film of it in the bore - kinda makes sense to me. IM jaybe :) |
RE: Muzzle Loading
jaybe
In or through it - if it is an inline I put the muzzle on a wash rag and pour the water through so that water is slowed down and give it time to heat the barrel - the hottttt water is death on sugar and any plastic fouling you might have. kinda makes sense to me. |
RE: Muzzle Loading
Thanks - and I think you did just fine. You gave so many disclaimers at the beginning of your long post, I can't imagine anyone getting upset by it - even if they don't like BB :D.
IM jaybe :) |
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