BARREL WEAR
 

i was reading and found articile about if you use 3f and not 2f ,your barrel will wear out faster. i believe the articile said 3,000 shots with 3f and 10,000 with 2f.hmmmmmmmmmmm

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

I'm not sure if I would agree with that forum.
To me barrel wear would indicate loss of rifeling.
And as deep as that is, in most muzzleloaders, I
just don't think the grade of powder that one
used would cause that process to speed up or
to slow down. I'm not a structual engineer but
I just don't think I could agree with that view.
Just my opnion.

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

sproulman

Interesting? I never even considered this but would it be any different than standard loads in a center fire and magnum charges in a center fire? Shooting mag charges of smokeless certainly accelerates throat erosion. Would not the hotter temps of 3f cause maybe the same thing? I would really hope the number difference is not that high. 3 to 10 is not a good ratio. Another factor that mightadd to this problem would be the tightness of the projectile in the seated position and the force need to drive the projectile out the barrel. The tighter all is the greater pressure and temperatures that are built up in the barrel.

Just my iniatial thoughts when I read you post...

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

The increased wear is reported to occur mainlyat the breech end of the barrel and is supposed to be caused by gas gutting from the increased pressure that Fffg generates. This has been kicked around by others before and there is some basis to it, in theory. However, whether it actually doeshappen seems to be more conjecture than fact. I have yet to see, or hear, of anyone that can actually show a barrel in which it did occur.

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

sabinajiles

I agree with what you are saying, but I would add, with an inline you can or will could see this gas cutting on the breech plug nose. If you use the same breech plug for the life of the gun it might really become evident. I am making an attempt to change to new breech plugs every couple of years.

One of the reasons claimed for the now famous Toby Bridges Savage failure was gas cutting. Bridges had fired a tremendous amount of rounds from this paticular Savage, he also claims that the breech plug design aids in this cutting. In the case of an inline breech plug if the gases do not get stopped at the face of the breech plug and the rear of the barrel cutting can be increased along the threads of the breech area - the plug and the breech area. This normally a long and miserable time period but the cutting does happen. The greater the pressure and temperature the more this gas cutting is accelerated.

I am really thinking the majority of us will never shoot one gun enough to be overly concerned about this problem. Hotter powders and magnum loads can accelerate this process - but again it will take a lot of bangs.

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

Wouldn't then some of the new current substitute powders also then cause the same danger. My understanding is some of them burn much hotter then the average black powder does and also produces much more extreme pressures. I think a person would need to fire an extreme number of charges from the same barrel to create such a problem. Of course I am not an engineer. So stress or metal fatigue could be happening without many of us knowing.

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

I had a T/C Hawken in 45 cal.that was about 30 years old ,one year I missed a fine buck(looked to be an 8pt.)I went to the range and shot it and it started to fly all over the paper.I cleaned and shot it over and over.it was hard to keep it on a paper plate.some even missed it.
I took it to a gun smith and he said the barrel was ware out.
I callec T/C and told them.they said send it to them.they sent me a card and told me the rifleings were almost gone.they replaced it with a brand new one. the only old part was the ram rod.
they said it was rare to have one with that much ware.I would say I shot 1,000 rounds a year,some more , some less for 30 years.

so I guess they will weare out after a while,at least thats what T/C told me.

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

tree climber.. how many shots do you figure you had fired out of that barrel to wear it out? I've been shooting an old Thompson Center .54 caliber Renegade for almost that long and for the longest time it was my only rifle. I'd hate to guess how many rounds I have put through that rifle. It still shoots good though. I have shot a lot of different powders through it as well.

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

Not trying to be cynical, butI wouldn't trust many "absolute statements" like that thaton the Internet...IMO those kinds of questions need to be put to engineers in the business.

What I live by is the industry rule of thumb when using 3F...which I personally askedTC about for verification.....and thatis to reduce 2F load data by 15% so the 3F chargeoperates in the same pressure range as the 2F charge would have.

ie: if you normally use 100grns 2F, then use 85grns 3F and pressures are in the same ballpark.
Gets meall the benefits of faster ignition and low fouling without any negatives of higher then normal pressure.

I suppose large volumes of large3F powder charges could begin a form of "throat erosion" it the area where the ball is seated...gas cutting the lands enough where blowby could begin around the patched ball, affecting accuracy...no idea how many shots that would take though...I'd certainly guess thousands...and in that light,I can't imagine anyone intentionally using that many of high power3F charges...the recoil itself wasnoticeably violent on the experiments I ran using full size charges of 3F in place of 2F.

My barrels getapowder-puff diet of mild 50-60grn target loads of 3Fon the weekends...then an occasionaldeer hunting shot each fall using a 90grn charge of 3F...19% belowthe max2F chargefor a given caliber.

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

really don't know how many.I do know when I first started to shoot,I didn't really clean it like I should have. when I would get it out , there would be signs of rust in the barrel. that may have had effect on the ware. I don't think it had that much or they would have said something at T/C. it was never left for more than a week at a time.we shoot all the time.

I do know it was in the range of 30,000 to 40,000 shots.I use to shoot every weekend ,Sat. and Sun.we had a good range and several of us would compete and try all the fancy shots and stuff.we even tried the axe on the target,trying to split a ball.I cut a sliver off a ball one time in all my years.we would try to strick the old kitchen matches.we did do that a time or two.we would take plastic coke bottles and shoot through the opening and hit the bottom without hitting the opening.you know all those trick shots.
just having fun for years.
so I can't really say on the #;a bunch.

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

i wish i could find that article on barrel wear. i guess author was saying that 10,000 rounds is what you would get with 2f. he then said with 3f you would get around 3,000 rounds. i too am curious on when you started having bad shooting with your hawkins and what powder, 2F or 3F. i may have just got scared out of using 3F.so, i guess we have to lower the charges if we use 3f,which we do anyhow.i am trying to find that article, i swear i put it under favorites.

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

cayugad

Without a doubt mostare hotter than BP and again can be accelerating the problem - but I am still inclined to believe this takes a lot of rounds - a lot more than most of us shoot.

I still feel one of the bigger areas of concern will be in the breech plug area of an inline - sidelocks the gas is pretty much sealed in except what blows back out the nipple and most nipples are replaced long before the cutting gets to be out of hand. Flnters you replace the vent liner every so often to defeat the same thing. Even the Savage breech plugs come with a replaceable vent liner. Inline breech plugs may be the weak spot once the cutting starts it keeps cutting in the same track (path of least resistance). Again, I think it is important to stop these gases at the face of your breech plug not in the threads.

I have included an crude drawing of what I am trying to say.

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

Having replaced a lot of "shot out" barrels over the years, I would think it would take a tremendous number of rounds to shoot out a MZ barrel. With CF rifle and pistol, jacketed bullets tend to wear on the rifling more than lead. A lot of my customers are competition IPSC shooters and will wear out a match grade stainless steel pistol barrel in one or two seasons. Shooting jacketed bullets, the barrel life is generally limited to about 30,000 rounds. I have had some .45 ACP's that were shot with only hardcast lead that went 100K rounds. As pressures and "overbore" calibers get pushed to the limit in rifles, barrel life really takes a dive. Some of the worst are overbore rifle calibers that use long heavy bullets. Like the .22-284 with 80 gr. VLD bullets. 500 rounds?

As I see it, the lead bullets combined with relatively low pressures and zero overbore is going to make a MZ barrel last a long time. The part of the barrel (other than the breech plug) that I would expect to wear out first would be the muzzle end - from all thebullet starting andseating necessary with each shot. I'd be surprised if MZ barrels were particularly prone to the same classic throat erosion that plagues CF rifles. I also think swabbing the barrel in between shots is going to make it last longer. As each bullet passes over the gritty residue left behind by the previous shot, it is bound to have an abrasive effect over time.

Just my thoughts, as a gunsmith. I have no practical experience to back this up, though. Maybe some day I will shoot out of one my smokepoles, or get a shot-out one in the shop that has a well documented history.

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

Roskoe

Great response thank you...

What might your thoughts be about escaping gases moving by the breech plug and out across a few of the threads? I am not concerned about the breech plug as I am the the threaded area that the breech plug screws into. Inspection of this area would be very difficult.I have this personal thing to stop these gases at the face of the BP. After reading the reports on the Savage blow-up and the suggested reasoning for the blow up, that area does concern me. But again I can not even imagine the number of rounds that would take at BP or even with Sub powders.

One thing that adds to my concern a little bit - TC will longer sale breech plug replacements for their Hawkins - they must be sent in for replacement so TC can make sure they are sealed. They have the same breech plug face and barrel face. The first one I built before TC clamped down did leak a little and I had to replace the breech plug with a new one and achieve that seal.

Somehow this all make sense my head but I probably am not presenting it correctly.

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

This is a total and complete crock!! IF you use lead bullets, your barrel will last literally forever. If you shoot cloth patched or paper-patched balls/bullets, it is the PATCH MATERIAL that wears out the bore, NOT the powder. I don't know what damage a plastic sabot causes,but the mechanism which wears out a ML barrel is entirely different from what ruins smokeless powder barrels. In smokeless powder arms, the hot powder gasses actually melt and carry away a small bit of the barrel steel each shot, just like a cutting torch. BP operates at so much lower temp/pressure than smokeles that this does not occur. Instead, the barrel is actually worn away by the friction of the projectile. Leadbullets are too soft to wear away steel, but paper and cloth patch material does!

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

i wish i could find that article again.the author was a person who shoots competion stuff etc.so, patchs and roundball wear out a barrel, oh my. i was just ready to switch from my maxi-balls to roundballs. i bought all this stuff to start again. if a patch is lubed and i use bore butter in barrel, would that not reduce the wear of patch in barrel?

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

AHawkeye bore scope would allow a very thorough inspection of the threaded area of a MZ barrel, just like we use them to inspect the throat of a CF rifle. I'm not seeing that as a big issue, though; since the main "pressure relief valve" of the system is the nipple - and even the 209 systems are somewhat leaky.

If I were T/C, I too would be hesitant to sell breech plugs because of all the folks out there who are building their own guns; andwant to try to thread and install the plug themselves. These barrel threads need to be machinedprecisely and torqued up very solid. Also, there is the issue of the flats on the barrel being indexed - and this would certainly require the services of a skilled lathe operator to shave the barrel shoulder off just enough to index under torque.

Overall, I would be surprised to find the breech plug threads worn away on a MZ barrel that has been shot a bunch. I could imagine some throat erosion on a gun that has had agadzillion 150 grain loads shot through it. And mostly crown/muzzle wear from the bullet seating process on any MZ rifle.

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

I also agree Roskoe. However I am not a gunsmith, but I've done most of the smithing on my own weapons and for many other folks over the years.

I happen to have an abused CVA Mountain in 54 cal that has a barrel that's on it's way out. Not because it's shot out but because it was horribly rusted when I obtained the rifle and I had to polish out the bore quite a bit to clear much of the rough areas. Since, I have easily a couple thousand rounds through that bore. It still shoots ok, but the accuracy is not as good as it could be were the rifle cared for in the first place.

I also have yet to shoot out an ML bore. My first ML (a T/C Hawken 50 Cal caplock kit) is 36 years old. I don't have a clue as to how many PRB's and conicals I've tossed down the bore. Tens of thousands? Not a clue. I've also shot all sorts of powders and countless pounds of 2FG and 3FG through that old T/C.

I switched to largely 3FG powders about 12 years ago.

It still shoots just as good as the day my Uncle and I put it together 36 years ago. The bore and the rifling are still clear and crisp.

Now if you don't properly care for your ML, you will be lucky to get 200 rounds out of it.
;)

m2c.

Tahquamenon

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

Eldequello - I think you are right on the money in you supposition that patched round balls and plastic sabots will have a minimal effect on barrel wear. The only thing I have wondered is that black powder residue seems to be a lot more abrasive than other powder residue. I could imagine this abrasive effect, over time, wearing the rifling down. As you probably know, one of the standard methods of cutting hard steel is to use an abrasive compoundand apply it toa softer metal (like brass or aluminum) first. This will cut the hard steel better than applying the abrasive to hard steel lap. Something like this probably goes on with the lead bullets going down the a bore coated with black powder residue. (I know it happens with aluminum cleaning rods coated with powder residue). Bet it would take two lifetimes, though. And those of use who swab between shots might not get much wear of this type either.

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

I wouldn`t rule out gas cutting either, as a cannon freak, I know cannonballs don`t use patches and the touch holes need drilling, tapping and a bolt is put in then drilled. Thus renewing the touch hole. Then again, cannons use a lot more powder.

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

Sure-anything that reduces the friction is going to reduce wear! And a Maxiball, a R.E.A.L., a Ball-ette, a Hornady Great Plains, or aMinie ball,for example, will give even less wear than a lubed patched ball.

RE: BARREL WEAR
 

Sure, the abrasive becomes imbedded in the soft "lap", so when the lap moves, the abrasive stays in place on the lap and cuts the steel. But if the abrasive does not imbed, as it won't in a piece of steel, it won't cut!

That's why steel cleaning rods are less damaging than brass or aluminum ones. I don't know just how abrasive black powder fouling is, but I suppose one COULD save some and use it to scour something and find out?? But I agree that it sure seems abrasive when you swab between shots.......