sabinajiles

I thought some of you guys following the threads on the effectiveness of roundball for hunting might be interested in this.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/221472/

Pglasgow, I don't know the B/C of a 5 bore roundball and I have no idea what king of velocity it would obtain when pushed by 420grns of Fffg blackpowder, but it sure would be interesting to see the Taylor Index on this.

Pglasgow

Sabinajiles,

You must have known that I would not be able to resist . Let's see now. Doesn't 5 bore mean that it takes 5 balls of bore size to equal a pound?

If so, then the ball weighs an incredible 1400 grains. Since the volume of a ball is proportional to the cube of the diameter of a ball and the weight of ball composed of a given fixed density (lead) is proportional to volume of the ball, we can determine the diameter of the 5-bore as follows:

The ratio of .45^3/128 grains is equal to the ratio of Dia5bore^3/1400 grains

or

dia 5 bore = 3rd root(1400*(.45^3/128)= .998 or 1 in.

Now 80 grains of 3f propels a 460 conical to a muzzle energy of approx. 1850 ft-lbs. We can say without question, that at least 1850 ft-lbs of energy resides in 80 grains of 3f. If the 5-bore can wring the same energy per unit weight at the 460 can in the .50 cal, then the energy exiting the muzzle of the 5 bore would be:

KE 5bore= (420/80)x1850 = 9712.5 ft. lbs.

Muzzle Velocity is then 1775 fps.

I would have to say, this is one mean round ball .

Regarding the BC, all roundballs made of the same material (ie lead), have the same BC. For lead, the BC is (theoretical) .075, though I have seen other estimate real world BC at .068. In any event, BC even depends on the velocity because supersonic projectiles carry a shock front which messes with the value considerably.

Here is a table for taylor, KE , and KP, out to 60 yards.(I figure they shot em close).

Range Vel. Taylor KE KP
---------------------------------------------------------
Muzzle 1775 355 9792 108,047
15 yds. 1637 327 8328 84,755
30 yds. 1509 302 7077 66,387
45 yds1391 278603952,336
60 yds1286 257 514041,090

One very mean roundball. Compare that to a 50 BMG which has muzzle values:

TaylorKO= 150
KE =13,054
KP = 121,719

Do youguys remember my last thread where I proposed minimum kp of 570 for deer? Do you reckon these two roundscould kill 200 deera piece?

Happy Hunting, Phil

lemoyne

Hmmm,kill on one end cripple on the other? Lee

Pglasgow

Could happen I suppose, but then, the question was rhetorical, (I wasn't looking for an answer).

I was just making the point the 1" roundballis almost 200 times more capable than a .5 cal. Think about it. Increase thediameter by a factor of two, and we have 200 times the weapon. In that sense, relying on the use of roundball for elephant as a justification of weak momentums and velocities for deer isn't all that sound. The 1" RBis so much better than the .5" cal RBfor elephant for all the same reasons a385 grain conical is better than a .50 cal RB is for deer and even for all the same reasons that the .54 cal RB is better than the .45 cal RB for deer.

The .54 cal is not equivalent to the .50 cal and the .50 cal is not equivalent to the .45 cal. We are not "just" discussing roundballs. We are discussing physical objects which have physical properties which extrapolate exponentially with bore size.

Happy Hunting, Phil

DannyD

Might have a slight recoil issue with this one

Pglasgow

No doubt!

jaybe

THAT was my first thought, too. I guess that's where the term "gun bearer" originated. Five or six guys point that thing at the beast, while the hunter pulls the trigger!

IM jaybe

sabinajiles

You still have to look at the factor of how much energy from the projectile is transferred to the animal, how it is transferredand how much is noteven utilizedwitha projectile that passes completely through an animal. If you read about the professional hunters of Africa, in the 19th century, you will find that most wrote that they preferred the large roundball, over a conical, for their rifles. Conicals were available to them but according to their writings, they still preferred the roundball becausethe large bore conicals hadtoo much recoil andhad a tendancy of passing clear through game without bringing it down as quickly as the roundball.

nchawkeye

During the Rev. War there were some one inch diameter rifles built to shoot at the British ships in the harbor...believe it was in New York...they had them mounted on a swivel...Also a story about Gen Hanger (British) and Banester Tarlton being shot at by a rifleman at 400 yards...The ball went between them (dang shame it didn't hit Tarlton 3 inches above the groin)...and hit the orderly's horse...killed it...From 400 yards mind you...With a lowly round ball...

Pglasgow

I think I would too for the same reasons I've already mentioned. First the load is more than enough, even forelephant, even in the way we judge modern centerfire rifles appropriate for elephant. Going to a conical twice its weight is only going to reduce velocity and require a reduction in charge. And the extra recoil, as if there isn't enough already, I wouldn't want it either.

But then, what if you were told you must hunt that elephant with a .70 caliber rifle?Do you think you would prefer the roundball (weighing only 480grains)still? It all boils down to what you want to deliver to the animal. The roundball, or any other projectilein and of themselves are just chunks of lead. Each possessing there own set of physical properties. There is nothing mystical about the properties they possess. The calculation of the elephant load shows us this.

It is clear that hunters as a group would approve of the 5-bore for the purpose of hunting elephants, it meets all standards. Though the same can not be said of the .45 RB for deer at a range of 100 yds, not saying the standards are necessarily fair, mind you. Keep in mind, I am the person who said that I now consider the roundball a choice I can make for hunting.

Earlier I said that the properties (weight - momentum- energy- taylor - etc.)of the roundball extrapolate exponentially as the bore size increases. The opposite is true if the bore size decreases. So if we start with the 1" ball as a very awesomeprojectile for elephant,and then interpolate exponentially as the bore size is decreased, then by the time we get to .36 cal we have a very limited weapon (less than 1% the weapon), even though the bore size is still a third of the 1" ball we started with.

As the bore size decreases, the conical begins to offer something which the roundball can no longer deliver. So I am not the least surprised that an elephant hunter using 5-bore would prefer a roundball. What I would disagree with, is if one draws the conclusion that because a 5-bore roundball is preferable to a conical, then it must also be the case, that for all other uses, the roundball is preferable.

Happy Hunting, Phil