The misuse of Powerbelts
 

I've been thinking. And the more I think about the more I get and understand sabotloader's soapbox in his thread "Another powderbelt question"

There seems to be alot of people using powerbelts who want the flat trajectory they get by propelling lighter bullets at higher velocity. They seem to be using powerbelts instead of saboted projectiles because of difficulties loading sabots.

THIS IS A VERY BAD THING TO DO.:)

We have two choices in Muzzeloading as I see it.

1. Heavy, powerful, looping full bore conicals

2. Lighter, smaller thanbore, flatter shooting saboted projectiles.

There is NO place for light hollowpoint full-bore conicals in our sport. We are in a sport where the sport is harvesting game, not wounding it. Putting a gas check on the back of a underweighted full bore conical does not make the sabot obsolete, no matter what we've been told. It actually makes me angry when I think too much about it.

If anyone is having trouble with loading sabots and a fast flat shooting bullet is what you are after, do confer with sabotloader and exhaust all resources with sabots. If you fail, PLEASE, bite the bullet and learn to shoot heavy conicals.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

Hmmm, you seemto have forgottenthe choiceupon whichmuzzleloading is based, patched roundballs!

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

I don't shoot Powerbelts for hunting but I agree with you. I've got a buddy who shoots the 245 HP Powerbelt and 100 gr Pyro pellets. He's killed several deer with this load with only 1 bullet recovery. None penetrated through the animal but usually on the opposite side of the hit there was usually a 3" circle tore up with what looked like shrapnel from the bullet. The one bullet that was recovered lost half it's weight. If I was required to shoot conicals (50 cal) the lightest Powerbelt I'd use is the 348 Aerotip. I'd prefer the 444 flatpoint. I don't like lubed bullets so I'd stay with the PB's.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

Sabinajiles wrote:

"Hmmm, you seemto have forgottenthe choiceupon whichmuzzleloading is based, patched roundballs"

I don't want to offend anyone. I shoot roundballs for practice. But I am sorry, I won't hunt deer with them. Traditionalists might hate me for it but I really don't think it took people of the era very long to figure out that the miniball was a much better projectile. I am being traditional in the sense that like the men of the past, I can recognize an important improvement when I see it and use it.

Eventraditionalists don't have any problems slipping saran wrap over their #11 nipples.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

How hard are these exploded Powerbelts being pushed? Iload conservative charges, say...75 gr of 777 on a 295 gr HP Powerbelt.
I would think that if you push it too hard, the velocity at impact is
great enough to shred the bullet. Am I offbase to assume this has anything to do with it? Some guys see 150 gr. capability and load
right to that.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

Check out the post on Recovered Bullets - Two Shockwaves and a PowerBelt. That particular bullet was pushed by 75 gr of T7. Broadside at 50 yards - and said it went BETWEEN the ribs!
This is what I have been hearing a lot of for the past year.
I just read on PB's website that the AeroTips are supposed to "penetrate further before beginning expansion." Does anyone have any real-life data on this?

To pglasgow: - It's pretty obvious that you are sold on heavy conicals. We've seen the charts and thank you for the info. Please just don't get too militant with your posts ;)

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

Click here for Powerbelt Ballistic Data.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

livbucks

I believe that the theory that you can drive the PB's to hard is correct - actually you can drive all bullets to hard. Thatwas the real knock on using pistol bullets in the first place - they are not meant to go ML velocity and they blow up and they did... Today the manufactures have realized that and have made the neccesary corrections.

Lead round balls, Elongated lead balls, PowerBelts and Conicals, and even automobiles, they will all blow up if driven to hard to a near dead stop collision.

Pglasgow, thebufflo hunter that he is, can live with and has learned how to shoot looping howitzers, or grenades at the speed necessary to deliver a big punch when they get there. Others like myself still want to achieve flatness with velocity - but yet have the punch on the business end. And I must say if I lived in the state of Colorado or even Washington - I would learn and master the howitzer also - probably from a White Super91.

Again just my 2 cents....

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

I disagree with you Phil on your belief of the roundball as being an inferior projectile. Also the use of large conicals I personally think is much more prevalent today then it was back in yesteryear. It was my understand that;

In 1848, a French army Captain Claude F. Minie designed and developed the projectile we commonly call the Minnie Ball or Minnie. It was named after him. This projectile had nothing to do with hunting. All this was developed for was to enable soldiers in the field to load faster and shoot further, without cleaningtheir weapon as often, there by giving them the opportunity of better killing or injuring their fellow man.

Prior to the development of the Minnie.. early settlers in the east depended on very small bore rifles .32 -.45 caliber were very common. Most of the common arms one would have encountered were muskets and shotgun to take game. Rifles were all hand made and very expensive.

The introduction of large bore muskets for instance the .69-.75 calibers were again an introduction by military to better wipe out their fellow man. Granted some of these muskets made it into civilian hands. Many large bore muskets even appearedin the Civil War. There are records of .69 caliber muskets and later rifles in common use. Civil War General for the Confederacy "Stone Wall" Jackson was rumored to have been shot (which later lead to his death)by his own troops in the night with a .69 caliber smoothbore musket. Which by the way normally fired a large roundball.

The Civil War did help lead to the development and popularity of large bore rifles such as the .54 caliber and the .58 caliber, as well as some of the modern cartridge rifles we know today. Such rifles as the Creedmore, and Sharps. Even lever action and cylinder action rifles started to make an appearance towards the end of the war.

As early white settlers and explorersmoved west, they encountered many animals much larger and more ferocious then accustomed to in the east. The plains herds demanded larger caliber rifles. Mountain men in their exploration of the Rocky Mountain regions saw the immediate advantage of calibers of .50 and larger when they encounters the great bears and some of the larger deer and plains species like bison and elk. Most of the time the projectile used was the simple patched roundball. It was not until the introduction of the Creedmore and Sharps among others, that the modern projectile was seen being used. Then of course with the advancement of the lever action and cylinder revolver came the cartridge development which we know today.

Roundballs have been killing and dispatching game and man for hundred of years. Granted I will not argue that they have the same ballistics as a sabot projectile, but anyone knows.. put a 1/2 inch or larger roundball through the vital organs of an animal and that animal will die. Sooner or later it will cause the death of that animal. I have hunted for many years with roundball and will vouch for their ability to cleanly and humanly take game animals when used in a responsibile manner.

Sabots were a recent improvement to the muzzleloading market. It was discovered that a projectile of smaller dimensions, through their use, could be shot from a muzzleloader accurate and with better ballistics which increased the effective range of the muzzleloader. Which is all sabots actually do, increase the effective range of the weapon.

The large conicals we see today,I really can not find any reference to their development in early years. I wonder if they were not some kind of adaptation of the minnie or other smaller conicals. Ball-et are also a recent invention.

What it all boils down to is, the sabot allows the muzzleloader with the correct rifle to shoot a projectile at a longer distance and still have acceptable accuracy and energy to dispatch game. When the roundball is used in the ranges it was originally intended to be used is still as deadly today as it was three hundred years ago.

Most of the long distance shooting the common muzzleloader shooter does today would not be as easy as it is if it were not for the use of optics. In my case, take the scope off the rifle and a roundball is as deadly as a sabot because I can not or will not shoot any further with either projectile.

As for the powerbelt, I have often wondered what was the original intention of the inventor. Do you feel that perhaps the material used and the design of the powerbelt could be responsible for the fragmentation we hear about today from their users?

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

GunWeek.com
Back in 1984, when Del Ramsey of Harrison, AR, introduced the sabot system to<br> ... Muzzleload Magnum Products, who brought us the muzzleloading sabot system ...

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

Jaybe wrote:

To pglasgow: - It's pretty obvious that you are sold on heavy conicals. We've seen the charts and thank you for the info. Please just don't get too militant with your posts ;)

Hope the chart helps if you use it. But honestly,it doesn't matter to me whether you use a 444 grain powerbelt or a 300 grain XTP or 250 grain shockwave. You seemed to like powerbelts, almost seemed to need them in order to load your rifle. I just wanted to offer you an alternative which would let you use them without having to pass on shots or worry if the kill would be clean.

It saddens me thatyou have interpreted my posts as militant. If there is one thing I do care about when I go hunting, it is this, I want to have a safe, successful hunt, with a clean kill and a steaming gut pile :). I really can't share much information about using sabots, i don't have enough experience with them. If this is being interpretedas though i am promoting the use of heavy conicals over sabots then it is most certainly being misinterpreted.

Honestly, ifmyposts are unwelcome, i really don't mind refraining from posting.

Happy hunting, Phil

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

You have beat me to it once again! I have wondered what material is used in the powerbelts. To get a .50 cal projectile to weigh in at a mear 245 grains, the lead must be very light or not dense. I think this may be the cause for all of the stories of the powerbelts fragmenting on impact. The copper plating is only there to reduce lead fouling and not strength. According to Powerbelt, the lead is soft enough that the charge pressure deforms the round and forces it into the rifling.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

Pglasgow: Truce! Sorry that I saddened you. Please don't refrain from posting on my account - that wasn't my intention.
I was on another forum where the "debate" got so intense that a section was closed and many members had to go elsewhere to discuss BP issues and concerns. I thought I saw a hint of that beginning in your post and just wanted to put forth a casual warning. Again - sorry for any offense. [&o]

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

I have often wondered if the Powerbelts in fact do actually
obturate (expand) into the rifling or not. Has anyone ever
recovered one in good enough condition to see the rifling marks?
I assume they do because they make a perfect hole in the
paper at 100 yards out of my gun. If they did come out without
hitting the rifling I would think they will tumble at 100 yards. Must
be soft stuff.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

No question about the obturation. If you remove the plastic skirt, a powerbelt bullet will drop down the barrel of most muzzleloaders. Yet when they are recovered from expansion medium or game, they have upset enough to have deeply engraved the rifling. The issue with this system is that there is a window of heat and pressure where this upset occurs as designed. At squib load levels, it doesn't happen. And at magnum loads, it happens to the degree that the stem at the base of the bullet deforms and doesn't release the plastic skirt. The latter scenario is not good for long range accuracy. BTW, I think the plastic skirt is only on there to prevent the bullet from falling back out the muzzle after being seated :)

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

Roskoe, I didn't think of that but it is a very good point. Powerbelt claims it is a gas check but without it, the bullet would definately fall out.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

I completely disagree with your opinion of effectiveness of rounballs for hunting, but cayugad has already posted an excellent rebuttal so i won't rehash it. My point was not to turn this into a roundball vs all else argument, but to correct a glaring falsehood in your original post. Let me refresh your memory:



Now, as far as I, and many others,are concerned, using traditional rifles, propellants and projectiles is still classified as muzzleloading and whether you you use roundballs, or not, it is still a choice for some.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

I was so concerned about the loose bullet fit that I seated one
and turned the gun and tapped the muzzle on the ground to
see if the bullet would come out of the base and fall out. I gave
it several good hits, what I thought were more than anything
that would happen in the field, and it stayed put. I was surprised.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

sabinajiles

And all others - I am probably no less guilty than Pglasgow and I honestly do not think either he or I would infer that shooting or using RB's is not muzzleloading, not is not a hunting tool. This is one of the best boards going and I certainly want to keep the animosity off this board.

I would be the first to admit also that I am not the best politician in the world - please do not rean into any of my posts that I would infer that shooting flintlocks, matchlocks, underhammers, or round balls is not an active and great sport.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

I have been shooting Powerbelts for 4 years now, and have killed every deer I shot. The farthest one deer went was 50 yrds!! I shoot a CVA Magbolt, .50 caliber, 295 aero or hollow point,and 80 grains of Triple 777 fffg. I have every one of these, what I call, a "POISON" mushroom. The bullet penetrated through the shoulder, and lodged just under the skin on the other side. There was no bullet weight loss.I don't like sabot's because of plastic fouling. The powerbelts just work for me.........

Just my 2.5 cents...........

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

Turkeyhunter1

I would go out on this limb and say - no-one should suffer from plastic fouling these days if your barrel is treated correctly and you are using the new polymere sabots..

I have been shooting my A&H four 6 years now and have never had a plastic fouling problem. I shoot t7 and suffer very little powder fouling. If you shoot shot guns and you use chokes you know you get plastic fouling there from the wads - I do too, but very little today. I shot 225 shots yesterday at the trap club - the choke is not fouled enough to even bother cleaning. Plastic fouling can be beat.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

Cayugad wrote:

"I disagree with you Phil on your belief of the roundball as being an inferior projectile"

I am surprised, very surprised, to see this. The last time I saw you comment on the round ball you wrote that there was a need to get "close enough and to put it in the right spot". I took that to mean that one must get closer and be more particular about the placement of the shot than one must be with a full bore conical or saboted bullet. I know that you meant that and that you wouldnever condone pinging a whitetail at 100 yards with .50 cal roundball possessing 450 ft-lbs energy.

I know you would never suggest that a round ball was just as good as any otherprojectile in regards to the energy it gets out of charge, how it retains energy down range,its secitional density,or its ability to pentrate game. We both know thatthe roundballneeds special consideration because of what it lacks in these departments. Wouldn't you agree?

I honestly apologizeas my statements about the roundball have offended you and some others. They were not directed youor anyone who uses the roundball but at the roundball itself.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

I shot a small buck, this year, using a 345 gr. Aerotip. I used 115 grs. of fff/triple 7. First let me say it killed the deer, with a chest shot, with about a 25 yd. run. That said, I would not use one again. There was about a 2 1/2" entrance hole. The bullet literly exploded, leaving pieces all over the place, didn't even leave a mark on the opposite side. I cant help wonder what would have happened if I would have hit the shoulder (nothing good). Good hunting

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

[blockquote]quote:

ORIGINAL: Pglasgow

We have two choices in Muzzeloading as I see it.

1. Heavy, powerful, looping full bore conicals

2. Lighter, smaller thanbore, flatter shooting saboted projectiles.
[/blockquote]

Sabinajiles wrote:

Now, as far as I, and many others,are concerned, using traditional rifles, propellants and projectiles is still classified as muzzleloading and whether you you use roundballs, or not, it is still a choice for some.

That, it most certainly is. I should have said "I have two choices". I really do mean that.

WhereI hunt, being responsible with a roundballmeanspassing onalmost every opportunityI would havehad if Ihad just pickeda better projectile.

I know of no measurable attribute related to a projectiles effectiveness in killing deer that a roundball has over any other choice in projectile. EG

1. Sectional Density

2. Ballistic Co-efficient

3. Momentum from a given charge

4. Energy from a given charge

Furthermore,I never once said the roundball was ineffective. That is something I would never say without qualifying the statement.I have learned that I will never say that it is inferior in sectional density, ballistic coefficient, momentum, energy, and range to other projectiles. Or I will offend someone who feels they are not. I really don't want to offend you. The strange thing is, we aren't laughing about how silly all this really is. One would think that it would be impossible to offend someone by saying something about a chunk of lead, or in this case, for failing to say anything about it? ;)

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

I think I agree! I dont like these smaller than bore sabots. I am GLAD my state doese not allow them.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

First off.. no apology necessary. I understand what you were trying to express and took no offence. I was only wishing to point out that a roundball should never be sold short. I'd never argue the ballistics of a roundball compared to say a SST. All different there.

One does need to get closer with a round ball per say a XTP or SST. But the round ball still has excellent killing powder even at extreme limits of its range. And you're correct shot placement is critical, but no more critical then with a conical or sabot projectile. If you don't put the projectile in the right spot it can not do the job. That's why no one just simply shoots for a deer, instead they pick an area or a spot on the deer, no matter what the projectile.

As for the 100 yard mark and a .50 caliber I have a friend that has taken three whitetail at that distance with open sights and a roundball. One of them dropped in their tracks, the other two made but a short distance. My longest with a .50 caliber roundball is about 60 yards. I normally hunt with a .54 caliber or bigger when shooting roundball. I felt he was on the very edge of his range, although we practice to that distance all the time. With a couple of my rifles I can consistently place a roundball in the bottom lid of a #3 pound coffee can nailed to a stake stuck out in the snow. (well I did 10 for 10 one day which I was very happy with) Would I shoot out to 100 yards on a whitetail with a roundball? If it was a standing broadside shot, and I had a good rest, with no cross wind. You would hear me shoot. Any further, and I would let it go.

My furthest with a roundball has been 80 yards to the target and then another 15-20 feet after that to the second target. I had the misfortune of shooting a deer with a .54 caliber roundball and 80 grains of Pyrodex RS once at approximately 80 yards (according to the owner of the land. I felt it more like 70 yards). The ball passed through that deer knocking it deadflat. The ball went further striking a second deer and knocking that one down also, with a broken spine. The ball still had enough power to sever the spine of the second deer but was lodged against the skin next to the spine. I finished that deer off with a knife. So penetration is possible with roundballs. I also had plenty of tags to cover my mistake.

A poster on a different forum I read about, shot a moose with a .54 caliber roundball and 90 grains of Pyrodex killing it. I do not recall how far the moose went after being hit. But I do recall the fact the moose was 160 yards away. So a roundball will penetrate. Would I condone such a shot.. never. In my opinion too far. Was this shooter lucky? I would say yes. I do not know this person personally but have no reason to doubt them.

So yes, one should get as close as possible to their game if hunting with a roundball. Of course I do that with any projectile I hunt with. I try to limit my shots with roundball to 100 yards. I never did put a lot of faith in numbers or foot pounds of energy. I stress shot placement and let the ball do the rest. I still hunt with roundball from time to time although I am determined to get deer with a number of different projectiles. Since roundball and conicals are low on the list, I have been hunting with XTPs, SSTs, Expanders, Powerbelts, and No Excuse Conicals. Now if just the deer would cooperate a little more.

I'm one of these people that say, hunt with what you like. As long as you know the limits of the weapon and it is legal to hunt with it, then have fun and be safe...

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

I would be curious how the roundball comes out when using the Taylor index: http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July02.htm I would contend that looking at 450 ft/lbs is a very poor way to evaluate the "knock down power" of a slow moving lead projectile. However, I don't know the ballistics of a round ball, so I can't plug it into the Taylor formula. Anyone else got the numbers?

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

Cayugad wrote:

First off.. no apology necessary. . .

I appreciate your comments very much. I may be more critical of the roundball than it deserves. I hunted with roundball when I first hunted blackpowder. The previous year I took a spike buck with a 25-06. That Christmas my father got me a T/C hawken .50 caliber kit and said if it was ever going to get together I would have to do it. I was 15 at the time and my Dad gave me guidance but he did not once do any of the work. He wanted it to be all my effort. Over the course of the next two months I built it and then I finally got it prepared to the point where he thought i should blue it.

As the weather warmed in March, we began shooting and I became proficient with it at 50 yards. My told me I shouldn't shoot beyond that distance with it at deer. All Summer we had a great time shooting and planning our hunt that fall. We were also going to hunt rifle season, but I just wanted to hunt with my Hawken even during rifle season.

I would like to say that I love everything about hunting. The time outdoors, time with my father, planning , hunting , shooting , gutting , dragging, skinning, cutting up the meat, and cooking it. I love the whole experience. I have had only one _bad_ experience while hunting and it happened that first season, hunting with a round-ball.

My dad set me at a stand and began moving on to his stand location. On his way, he spooked up a little fork buck. As luck would have itwas runningstraight for my location. He hollered.I stood, cocked my rifle, shaking. I could see him coming, shouldered the rifle and as he run by i swung my rifle sighting as best I could. From less than 20 feet my bullet entered just below his spine in the lung area. If i got the lungs, I clipped the top of them but the round ball shocked his spine rendering his hind legs useless.

It was a pitiful heart wrenching sight as the deer struggled with his front legs to get back up, hindlegs useless. Meanwhile, I frantically tried to reload my rifle, shaking and unable to stay focused on reloading as i kept looking back at the deer struggling. Meanwhile my Dad is running full tilt to get back. Before I could reload, the deer regained the use of its hind legs and bounded off. There is alot of open prairie where we hunted and I could see him bounding off like he never was hit over a 1/2 mile away.

I looked for two days, with my bird dog in tow, but I never found that buck. It happens to be the only shot I've taken that didn't ultimately result in a kill. It was very disturbing to me and we didn't hunt the rest of muzzleloading season. My father later said that he feared I would not hunt rifle that season.

A few months later, we discussed this experience with one of Dad's friends, and he, admonished my Dad for hunting with roundballs, saying that had we used a maxiball, the deer wouldn't have got up. He was a reloader and he described the ballistics to us.We bought a maxiball mold, which I still have and harvested some whitetails infuture hunts without incident.

Even today, I can say, without question, thatwounding and loosing that buckis the only bad experience I have ever had while hunting. A maxiball may not have made any difference, i realize this but even so. Itwould have improved the chances.

I suspect, that literally "everyone" who extensively hunts with round ball has wounded and not recovered at least one if not more whitetails. Granted, such an experience changes the way one hunts. He is more careful. I know, for me, I will never take another shot on a running deer, even if it is only 6 yards away, muzzleloader or not.

Hunting with roundball may be more sport and 500 ft-lbs may be all it takes to kill a whitetail when put in the right spot. Ifpeople enjoy it, who am I to critisize? Indeed, I have never critisized anyone for hunting with a roundball and I won't begin now. Even so, I won't encourage anyone to do it and I certainly think that anyone who is new to the sport should have a complete understanding of the roundball's limitations and capabilities if he chooses to hunt with them.

I really do hope that everyone understands that I was just making what I believe to be factual statements regarding the roundball. I am not wanting or trying to offend anyone, though I do understand how one can take offense to my statements of the roundball or in this thread, my exclusion of the roundball as a choice for hunting.

Again, I appreciate your response.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

txhunter wrote:

I would be curious how the roundball comes out when using the Taylor index: http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July02.htm I would contend that looking at 450 ft/lbs is a very poor way to evaluate the "knock down power" of a slow moving lead projectile. However, I don't know the ballistics of a round ball, so I can't plug it into the Taylor formula. Anyone else got the numbers?

If someone who has clocked their roundball hunting load will post their muzzle velocity, I will post the ballistics for you.

It is funny that you mention the Taylor index. There is a measure I recently read about called kinetic pulse. One can read about it here http://www.xmission.com/~fractil/math/kp.html. Basically, the theory states that the volume of wound channel is a function of momentum AND energy being proportional to the product of both these measures. He equates a projectiles killing power as being directly measured by the volume of the wound channel. The theorist performed tests by shooting projectiles into a moist clay lake bed near Salt Lake City. By filling the cavities with water and measuring the quantity of water it takes to fill the cavities he empirically determined the mathematical relationship.

While it may not have been the best laboratory, I do respect the fact that he has attempted to follow scientific method in drawing his conclusions. If nothing else, it is a very good and interesting read. I encourage everyone to read it.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

This was the final product found on the second deer under the skin.

Actually Pglasgow.. I commend you for looking for a different projectile when you no longer had faith in the one you were using. There is nothing wrong with looking for something bigger and better. If you did not feel the round ball adaquate then you should have looked somewhere else for something you did feel would get the job done. Many people use a projectile that they have bad experiences with only because it is an easy thing to do. You on the other hand looked to a different way to use the rifle. I see nothing wrong with that at all.

I personally have never had a deer get away on a roundball. I am also very fussy about the shots I take. Like you, I do not like running shots, and avoid them. Walking shots I have done. Once I made a shot at one that was not running but not walking.. I am sure you know the speed I am talking about. Its when the deer is nervous and wants to move from the area, but something in them also makes them want to look around. They almost glide. Well she glided too close to my tree stand on the last day of the season.

I carry that expaned roundball in my possible bag. My new favorite is the .58 caliber roundball. Also I shoot a .62 caliber roundball along with about 20 different sabot projectile combinations out of my inlines. I just like to shoot....

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

cayugad wrote,

"I carry that expaned roundball in my possible bag. My new favorite is the .58 caliber roundball. Also I shoot a .62 caliber roundball along with about 20 different sabot projectile combinations out of my inlines. I just like to shoot...."

Itoccurs to me that.58 and .62 are much better than my .50 when shooting roundball.

and cayugad said:

"I personally have never had a deer get away on a roundball. I am also very fussy about the shots I take. Like you, I do not like running shots, and avoid them."

Believe me. It is a shot I wish I could take back. I am glad you have never lost a deer to roundball.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

correct me if I am wrong, but if you take the sabot away from the bullet, that bullet will fall out also. so what's the difference? with a sabot on a .50 cal ML you will most likely be using a .44 cal bullet. I power belts ar closer to actual .50 cal with the belt acting as the sabot. I shoot them an have had a much better time getting good groups. oh, and got my 1st deer this year with them.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

First, I have never taken any offense at anything you stated. You made a broad statement in which you statedthechoices for anyone using a muzzleloader for deerhunting and it didn'tinclude roundballs. I simply wanted to point that out. However, you then replied that your intent was not to suggest that roundballs weren't a choice for anyone but just for you and you would never suggest they were ineffective projectilesfor harvesting deer. Yet, you have now followed with several more posts where you do just that.

All your latest story illustrates to me is that a young boy, in the heat of an adrenaline filled moment, made abad decision to take an ill advised shot at a deer and then made a poor shot and didn't recover the deer. IMO, it has not one thing to do with the effectiveness of the roundball. A bad shot is a bad shot, period. Let's be perfectly honest. A whitetail deer is not a particularly tough animal to kill and a shot with any projectile that is placed through both lungs will cause it to die in 10-15 seconds.

In over 30 years of deer hunting, I have never lost a deer I have shot with a roundball and I have taken more than a few. I have never had a deer shot with a roundball go more than 75 yds, with themajority of them going down much sooner and many dropping in their tracks. This doesn't make me a super hunter or a super lucky one. It means I understand the limitations of my equipment, and my abilities, and keep within them.

Every projectile has limitations and, IMO, it is pointless to argue about them. None ofthe charts, measurementsand anecdotalevidence mean squat to the guy out hunting, using what works for him. I assume that each of us use what we do because we understand the limitations of our equipment, and ourselves, and are willing to stay within them. To do otherwise is not only unwise, it is unethical.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

Phil, how does the patched round ball figure into your formula! It is the epitome of a light, full-bore, high velocity (at least initially)projectile.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

sabinajiles,

We are gonna have to come to an understanding. I am as passionate about roundballs not being a choice for me as you are about bullying me into recanting my position. Just give up on it. I have a right to my opinion and I have a right to speak factually.

sabinajiles wrote:

However, you then replied that your intent was not to suggest that roundballs weren't a choice for anyone but just for you and you would never suggest they were ineffective projectilesfor harvesting deer. Yet, you have now followed with several more posts where you do just that.

Again I have never said roundballs were inneffective. I did say that roundballs are inferior to the other choices. I stand by that. I followed with several more posts which included statementsthat pointed out just how roundballs are inferior to other projectiles in the physical attributes the indicatea projectiles capabability for killing game. Fact is, the roundball finishes last in all these attributes. I know this to be true and I wont recant that it is true.

Sabinajiles goes on to say.

In over 30 years of deer hunting, I have never lost a deer I have shot with a roundball and I have taken more than a few. I have never had a deer shot with a roundball go more than 75 yds, with themajority of them going down much sooner and many dropping in their tracks. This doesn't make me a super hunter or a super lucky one. It means I understand the limitations of my equipment, and my abilities, and keep within them.

Every projectile has limitations and, IMO, it is pointless to argue about them. None ofthe charts, measurementsand anecdotalevidence mean squat to the guy out hunting, using what works for him. I assume that each of us use what we do because we understand the limitations of our equipment, and ourselves, and are willing to stay within them. To do otherwise is not only unwise, it is unethical.

Look sabinajiles, I'm not going question any thing you said here. I am going to point out something. There is nothing in your statement which gives anyone any idea what the proper use a roundball is. What its limititations are. Its like you are giving a lesson in ethics without giving the ethics.

Having30 years of experience with the roundball, one would think that you could offer some guidelines on range, shot placement, and so on describing the limitations one must hunt with in orderto hunt ethically with a roundball. I would think they would have at least some scientific basis in fact instead being anecdotally supported.

I think if you did that. Youmay find I supported those guidelines and agree thatthis use of theroundball isethical and effective.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

hello, i like roundballs also, and used them here in pa. back from 1968 to around 1980. shot a lot of bucks in that time with them . do i like them now for deer, yes, but dont use them. i feel i get better groups at lower powder with the maxi-ball or powerbelts for DEER. most roundballs you should shoot a higher powder charge to get velocity etc. my best groups with roundball were 75 grs of 2f but hunting i used 100 grs and groups were not good but more power to send roundball to deer. i did not like kick also.look at roundball,i think he shoots 90 grs of 3f with his round balls on deer, thats around 105 for me on 2f.wow, what a kicking machine, not me anymore. i like shooting like i am holding a .22 cal, ha. also the maxi/powerbelts are much easy to load at 10 above zero here in pa. i broke a few rods hunting using roundballs in pa. in winters of 1970s,brrrrrrr, it was cold then, nothing like now. its just so much better with the maxi/powerbelts to reload than the roundball in cold. i could never get groups with roundball as i get with maxi/powerbelt. roundball does, he gets good groups but he shoots aLOT, more than average person.he has everything down to nuts/bolts. most cant shoot like that and refine their shooting and loads etc. so, MAXI-BALL/ POWERBELTS will fill in that void that helps the shooter that only shoots a couple of times a year and hunts that way. for practice i amd shooting nothing but the roundbal BUT when i go hunting WHITETAIL DEER,IT WILL BE the maxi-ball370 or powerbelt 295 in .50cal with 1-48 twist flintlock with open sights. my favorite load is 80grs of 2f with the maxi-ball or powerbelt and around 75/80 grs. of 2f for .490 roundball. roundball is real good at ROUNDBALLS and cayugag too. both shot more than me with them as i could never get real good accuraty with them with my twist of 1-48, they do. its little tricks to get a roundball to shoot well and they both know them. take care.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

Hi Folks,

Each projectile and loadchoice has a certain limiting factors and constraints.

Roundball hunting demands greater accuracy and shot placement.

For the roundball, the wound channel and hydrostaticshock is not as great as say a hollowpointwhere faster moving, rapid expanding projectiles will cause greater wound channels, more shock and fragmentation. More lethal? Perhaps.

Bigger projectiles cause bigger holes and greater penetration. Does that mean more lethal? Perhaps.

I would say that big conicals and rapid expanding projectiles are more forgiving for less than ideal shot placements than a roundball.

Otherwise, if you put the shot where it's supposed to be in the case of deer or any other mammal then the top end of the heart would be text book followed by a double lung then it really does not matter what you shoot. Some folks like the higher shoulder/spinal shots. I have never been a fan of such shots as strange things have happened to me. Sometimes deer can run forever after being shot to pieces. Other times they simply fall over.

The high shoulder shot is most effective when using either a projectile with higher hydrostatic shock or greater penetration or both.

The main circle of this post is talking about either large heavy projectiles or lighter faster traveling expanding projectiles.

The great thing about muzzleloading is choice.

I hunt with just about everything that loads from the muzzle (roundballs, saboted projectiles, conicals, flintlocks, caplocks, inlines and pistols).

Shot placement is everything regardless of what you are shooting.

But if are shooting a roundball, then shot placement means even more in my book. I feel that the roundball hunter has greater responsibility as the roundball is more limited than other projectile choices.

I have passed on quartering shots with a roundball that I might have taken with a large conical. Does that make the roundball inferior? Not at all.

Michigan does not have acaliber restriction formuzzleloading deer. A fella I know hunts and harvests deer every year with a .36 caliber flintlock rifle and a PRB.

For me the 64 grain .350" roundball is too light to hunt deer with. But who knows? If I had a .36 caliber (or rather when ;)) then I might just hunt deer with one. Then the next day I would either carry a 50 caliber scoped inline of some flavor shooting say a Hornady SST and the day after perhaps a 54 caliber shooting a hefty conical.

On the day I am carrying a .36 and PRB, I will pass on the high shoulder shot and focus on the top of the heart which it what I aim for most often. Or perhaps a head shot.

Hmm...Now that I have mentioned a .36 caliber, I had better get one this year!

:D

IMHO & Peace,

Tahquamenon

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

I know its a fine line, but CDOW approved the Powerbelt on the premise that when it leaves the muzzle of the rifle, it is a full caliber conical that engraved the rifling. They could have just as easily deemed it a sabot; but chose not to. I really don't think the Wildlife Commission had any intention of promoting the sales of Powerbelts, but it is certainly a stroke of fortune for the folks at CVA.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

Roskoe

I believe the state of Washington either following Colorado's lead or making the same decision about full bore, and thenthey went one step further - no copper.

RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
 

Want it from the Horse's mouth?

http://www.powerbeltbullet.com