Triple 7 question.
 

I've been using 2 50 gr. T7 pellets ,W-W 209 primers, and a 250 gr. Shock Wave. I'm going to try loose T7, what works better 2F or 3F?

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

bsteve

In which type of ML - inline or sidelock

I have gone totally to fffg in side locks and continue to use 2f in the inlines.

Remember that 100 grains 2f is a greater charge than 2 50 grain pellets. and going to 3f you should probably reduce another 10% andwork up or down from there.

A lot of people are getting better velocity and even reporting better accuracy with 3f in the inlines, but I can not say that has worked for me in my tests...

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

I've never been able to get 3f in Triple Se7en so I can not comment on that. I shoot a lot of 3f Goex and now that I have such a large supply of Pyrodex RS I will be shooting that too...

Triple Se7en 2f I am sure will give you excellent accuracy, but there are those that shoot Triple Se7en 3f... this is an interesting question.

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

My rifle is an inline,T/C Omega. If I'm not using 150 gr. charges I don't see any advantage to using pellets. The 1 lb. canisters work out to be a lot cheaper and the charges can be tweaked in 10 gr. increments. Thanks for the info.

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

bsteve

I could look this up I am sure but, how long is the barrel on the Omega? The real advantage to 3f in an inline is with the 22/24" barrels. Since 3f is so fine it really burns rapidly, and in a short barrel that would be a +. A rifle with a longer barrel might not recieve the velocity boost from 3f as do the short barrels. One of the inlines I am shooting is a A&H when I have experimented with the two powder I have not recieved a significant boost with 3f, somewhere between 100 - 200 ft. per second.

Just my thoughts & I agree withyour thought about loose vs pellets. Once a long time ago it was really easy to use pellets but $ become a big factor if you shoot alot.

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

In my opinion 3f works best in short barrels with light bullets and small calibers[under 50] 2f has work best for me heavy loads, long barrels and medium to heavy bullets.

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

My Omega has a 28" barrel. It has that section at the muzzle that's over bore,so actually it's a 27" barrel. I bouught a pound of T7 2F. I've got some Pyrodex RS and T7 pellets to use up with conicals to smooth out my bore before I try the loose powder.

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

I shoot 2F in my Omega. As stated above, reduce your load 15% when using loose vs. pellets. In other words, 88 grains of loose equals aprox 100 gr 777pellets. Or saying it another way, if you use 100 grains of loose, you are using the equavalent of about 115 grains pyrodex.

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

bsteve

Sounds like a really good plan. The t7 -2f should work great for you...

With the t7 if you start getting the "crud ring" give a shout I think I might have a way to beat that also. If you have difficulty getting the sabot down the barrel give another shout - there is no good reason to have to struggle to get one down.

Make sure you boil out the barrel before you start shooting - get it clean...

Good luck and great shooting...

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

What about if you were using T7 pellets (100gr) and then want to try loose 3f of Jim shockeys gold. If I recall it's supposed to be volume equivalant I thought, however because it's 3f vs. pellets being made with 2f don't this increase pressure? lets say in an encore with a 26" barrel (includes QLA)?Thoughts?

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

All you could do is to try and work up a load with the loose powder. I would start with the Jim Shocky Gold powder at 90 grains and see how different it is then 100 grains of Triple Se7en.

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

cayugad, I did just that and found that I my POI moved high 6-8" @100yards. I'm not exactly for sure because I'm no expert but it seems that it might have some velocity increase over T7 pellets. What do you think? I just posted this same reply to the thread American Pioneer just a minute ago, see what you think? Did you get the phone # for the place I suggeted to campo?

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

TC209x50

My thoughts: 2-50 grain pellets of t7 are suppose to be equivelent to 100 grains of real BP and/or 100 grains of Pyro anything 2f. 100 grains of t7-2f is suppose to be 15% stonger - do not think it is quite that much more like 10% but nevertheless it is stronger.

2f ignites at a given speed and generates a given pressure at that speed. Depending how tight the bullet is in the barrel and the weight of that projectile the pressure increases qucikly and dramatically until it gets the bullet moving - once it is moving the powder charge burns out rapidly - BP quicker than T7. The next part of the equation is - 3f rises in pressure faster than 2f so again that causes a higher spike faster and again the tighter/heavier the bullet - thehigher the spike - BUT then 3f also burns out faster once the bullet is moving - hence my thought that if you are using a short barrel you might generate more velocity with 3f than 2f and still have burning and pressure pushing the bullet all the way out the barrel - on the other hand if you have a long barrel and the buring completes before the bullet exits then you will start losing velocity. But if you are using 2f the burning process last longer pressure last longer and thisconstantpressure pushes the bullet out of the barrel with no loss of velocity.

If you are a centerfire re-loader you can relate this this to the different buring rates of powders that you use there.

In my mind a 26" barrel is right on the verge -will 3f increase velocity or won't it - when you get to the 28" and greater barrels or 54 caliber 2f is probably the way to go.

Again some of the pressure generated will depend on how much pressure is need to start that object rest moving (remembering the rule an object at rest tends to stay at rest) and how much pressure is needed to make the object accelerate and continue to accelerate.

When I load a sabot/bullet combination - Iusea short starter, thumb pressure then the ram rod. I want to be able to load somewhat effortlessly when I am hunting so I am not interested in the short starter or pounding the sabot down. In th old days they would just drop the ball down and set it against the powder to get that quick second shot off.

I hope this makes some sense to those of you that read it, and TC I hope I have explained my thoughts.

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

Yes I did note the phone number etc you suggested. As for why that POI would move that much, it had to be something to do with a difference in the burn rate I am sure. The results are interesting to be sure.

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

sabotloader, thanks yes I do follow that and it makes logical sense to me. What I don't understand is why both the sticks (two 50 gr.) and the loose powder (100gr of Jim's gold fffg) shot high. I can understand the loose but the sticksI'm not for sure about. The only thing I can think of isthe Jim Shockey sticksmight bemade fromthe fffg powder. A friend of mine shoots the regular American Pioneer sticks and he looked at mine and said he thought by recalling from memory that the stick I had looked to be more of a finer grain compressed stick. I don't know this I've never seen those sticks to compare against. If so that mightexplain it. I still can't wait to do a more conclusive test, however from what I've seen my encore seems to like it (25" apprx. without QLA) and I do enjoy some of the benfits of powder. I'd like to try the Pinnacle but from what I've heard there's probably not alot of difference in the two. I have noticed that the fffg in the Pinnacle isfiner grain than that of the Jim Shockey's Gold in fffg and there's also a difference in color so I'm still not convinced that they are made buy the same organization. They might both be made from the same process (Asorbic Acid someone told me).Thanks for the input and advice, since I joined this forum I've really enjoyed the discussions.

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

TC209x50

Just a guess - because I have not seen the Gold, but have read a couple of articles, I believe the Gold is screened to a higher and finer quality of powder - the granuals may besmaller and are cleaner- therefor creating afaster burning faster peaking pressure - getting your projectile out of the barrel faster.

If your barrel (useable length) is 25" (and really probabaly a little shorter than that by the time you add the powder and the projectile) and if you are shooting a tight or heavier projectile - I would think you gun would benefit from 3f powder. You may also be receiving somewhat of a bump by the fact that there is an air space between the projectile and the breech (almost like short starting), and as I remember the sticks, they occupy less space in the barrel than the Hodgdon pellets. Another reason some companies say crush and some do not.

The different coloring in the powder is cosmetic - so each company that APP contracts with will have something to claim of their own. I use to shoot the orginal clear shot and it was really pretty un-spectacular, but I am sure the formulation of it has been changed over the years.

you are correct - and this acid either in the powder or the residue will be what eats (etches)the metal in your gun if it gets damp for a long period of time in your barrel. If the residue remains dry or the powder remains dry it will cause no errosion for that same period of extendedtime.

good luck - thanks for the post back

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

As I posted before the 250 gr. Shockwaves are very tight in my Omega, that's what got me interested in experimenting with different components. I'm also going to try different projectiles. I'm interested in the Dead Centers, gotta look around for some. Another thing I've wondered about is the tail on the Hornady SST sabots. Aren't the center holes on the Hodgdon pellets supposed to aid ignition? If so it would seem that the Hornady sabot would hinder this.

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

I forgot to mention that the bullets I'm using primarily are the Barnes spitfire 245 grain. I know there a little on the expensive side but for hunting there great. My gun also shoots the Hornady SST's very well but with T7 they are near impossible to load. With the barnes spitfire they seem to go down with a nice constant pressure, tight but not overly tight. The main benefit I get from them is accuracy in conjunction with the ease of loading. When I was using the Jim's Shockey's gold I tried the SST's and they loaded alot easier. If any of the omega and encore shooters are interested, chuckhawks.com website has some interesting info. about this bullet with respects to T/C and their usually tighter bore. I found it interesting reading. Just my observations

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

I can give you a possible reason for the large difference in the points of impact. A slower, not faster, bullet will usually(of course up to a point) shoot higher. I know this seems nuts but if you think about it, the slower moving bullet is in the barrel longer an is subjected to more rise of the gun from recoil. I know this to be a fact using a hand gun, the slower load always prints higher. I also found this info in a reloading manual.

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

I prefer 3FG over 2FG powder.

I would shoot 3FG 777. Try about 80-85 grains FFFG or95-100 grains FFGand the 250gr Shockwave from your Omega.

Reduce any FFG (2FG) max black powder/pyrodex loading data by 10% for the 3FG powder and then another 15% for the increased power of 777.

So reduce Max Black Powder/Pyrodex FFGloads by 25% when shooting 3FG 777.

Example:
Rifle's max load is 150 Grains loose Black Powder FFG. Your max 777 FFFG (3FG) load would be 112.5 grains loose. I would round down to 110 Max 3FG 777.

Good luck!

Tahquamenon

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

Are you cleaning the bore completelybefore each shot?

You may find that loading the SST/Shockwave on a clean, dry bore is much easier.

Also, you may wish to invest in a range rod if you have not already done so. Loading life is much easier with a range rod. I don't go to the range or hunting without one. I carry a collapsing range rod for the field.

Tahquamenon

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

Tahquamenon

At the range cleaning the bore is fine in the field it may be the pits - and really with the right sabot and a barrel that reduces fouling through proper care it should not be a problem in the field. You should be able to load at least 4-5 loads.

Just my 2 cents...

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

Well at the range, my POI is based on a firing from a clean bore every time so I duplicate that condition in the field.

When hunting, if I do shoot the ML and am not leaving the field, then I swab the bore with a couple of 50/50 alcohol/windex patches followed by a dry patch. I detail clean at home every evening after firing only one shot during the day.

Then the bore is clean and dry. Then I reload from speed loader. Whenever I shoot a deer, I take this brief cleaning and reloading procedure as time for the animal to lay down. You should sit still for 20-30 minutes anyway after shooting a deer, well I do anyway.

Not that tough really and I know exactly where the next shot will POI.

Fouling draws moisture big time, which also leads to both rust and possibly contaminated powder.

Lastly, loading tighter fitting projectileson fouled bore is really a ton of work.

This is just something that I do. Not trying to change anyone's approach. I have never hunted with a fouled bore, regardless if with PRB, conical or sabot. Ever.

The only time I deviate from the clean bore is if I think I might need a quick finishing shot or a rapid second shot on another opportunity and then I will rapidly load a worked up load witha slip fit conical from speedloader.

Regards,

Tahquamenon

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

BSTEVE HOW HARD IS IT FOR YOU TO LOAD THE 250GR.
SHOCKWAVES? I CAN LOAD THEM IN MY OMEGA BUT IT
TAKES SOME ELBOW GREASE TO GET IT DONE. I REALLY
LIKE THE INFO. I'VE SEEN ON THE SHOCKWAVES &
THINK THEY SHOULD BE GREAT FOR DEER. PLEASE POST
ANY RESULTS FROM TRYING DIFFERENT THINGS & I
WILL TOO. MY OMEGA IS BLACK/SYN. THUMB HOLE STOCK
WITH THE 28" STAINLESS BARREL. GOOD LUCK LET
ME KNOW WHAT YOU FIND THAT WORKS IN YOURS.

THANKS DANNY

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

Aquatech,my Omega was a bear to load untill I lapped it [I fire lapped mine] it loads much better now they have cut barrels and some times fine burrs and sharp edges on the rifleing.There are a number of ways to lap for this purpose I rub polishing compound into ticking patches and shoot round balls till the bore is polished. I have heared of people mixing it with grease and shooting lead bullets. You can also pour a slug right in the barrel and drive it out and put compound on it and push it through the barrel till it is polished, for this process you should hunt up some experanced help. Good Luck Lee

RE: Triple 7 question.
 

Aquatech, with a clean barrel the first sabot goes pretty hard. The second sabot after firing the first one is Very hard. I tried to reload quickly after shooting at a deer and thought I would bend the ramrod. I've been goose hunting so haven't been shooting the muzzle loader. Goose season ends saturday so I'll be experimenting soon. My Omega is the camo stocked S.S. model.