RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Nice pics. I doubt the testing was fair and unbiased though. That site sells PR bullets.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Phil,
You make some outstanding points and prior to seeing this bullet, I would have agreed with you. Remeber, the two I said blew up on me were with a 295 grain PB, I seem to remember that one of them may have had an aero tip, charged by 2 50 grain pellets of 777.

But, the one in the picture, also a 295 grain PB was only charged by 75 grains of 777. Like I said previously, I thought the problem was with too hot a load as well, that is why I figured it would be ok with the lighter load. 75 grains of 777 is equivalent to about 88 grains, orso,of pyrodex. So, just how low does one have to go to keep a 295 grain PB from blowing up?

R
Hank

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

any hollow point bullet driven at high speed will blow up.for deer, thats not good but if hit in right spot, its all over. if i was shooting in-lines at those high speeds, i would only shoot the heavy powerbelts, nothing 295 and under. now, for us flintlock 50 cal tc hawkins i have, the 295 gr hollow point powerbelt is great. BUT i only shoot around 80 gr. of 2f geox, no kick and they shoot real nice. i still use the MAXI-BALL 370 as they balance better in flight but we have used the 295 pwerbelts and they worked fine and came out the other side of our bucks.fast speed and light bullets HOLLOW POINT ,is a no no. solid point, no problem at fast speed even if it is a LIGHT bullet .but again, you must make the good shots,nothing in the bones.thats why the 370 MAXI-BALL is my favorite. running buck in our drives is history with the 370 maxi-ball as we dont have to get the best shot behind shoulder.take care.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Hank wrote:

So, just how low does one have to go to keep a 295 grain PB from blowing up?


Hank,

I agree with sproulman, he has actually used them for hunting.

In terms of velocity, 80 grains of 2f is probably equivalent to 65 - 70 grains T7. Even so, with the 295's you don't want to hit bone as it could prevent entrance to the vitals. I like his choice of conical better than powerbelt, but that is my opinion and his recommendation is from experience. T/C, Buffalo, Precision Rifle, Hornady all make good conicals.

Heavier hollowconicals withstand breaking up better than lighter ones for two reasons.

1. Lower velocity

2. There is more lead to mushroom with.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Phil,
If you read my original post, it is pretty obvious that I have used them for hunting too. My comments, and pictures are only to inform. If someone is having great luck with them, then they should stick to them. Like I said, how much slower do you need to shoot a PB than 75 grains of 777 will impart (like I said, equivalent to about 88 grains of 2f Pyrodex) to keep it together. This load drives the Hornady XTP hollowpoints, 300 grainers,very nicely and my boys have killed several with them. No blowups, through bone, hole in and a hole out w/ great blood trail; excellent performance. I don't think the extra 5 grains provided that much enhancement. The improvement is in the overall construction on the bullet.

That is where I was coming from with the comment on just how low do you have to load them to keep em from blowing up? If 88 grains of 2f blows up, what about 75? Just how low does one have to load a 295 grain PB to keep it from blowing up? Who knows.

But, as I stated earlier, PBs need two or three improvements that would go a long way to improve their performance.

First, get rid of the hollowpoint. I agree that it is nothing more than a fancy conical. Treat it that way. If it is going to keep the ridiculously thin plating and softness then it needs to be a solid.

Second, if it just HAS to be a hollow point, reduce the size of thecavity in the bullet. The thing is cavernous. I am sure it improve performance w/ this improvement.

Third, increase the thickness of the jacket. At least around the base. Give the central lead mass some support to keep the thing together.

Hmmmm, smaller hollowpoint, thicker jacket; I just described the Hornady XTP, like I said in my original post, I'll just stick to them from now on.
R
Hank

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

but until that happens, in the in-lines using powerbelts, i would use the heavy powerbeltsnot reduce charge.you want most out of those in-lines.take care.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

ahanskter wrote:

If you read my original post, it is pretty obvious that I have used them for hunting too. My comments, and pictures are only to inform. If someone is having great luck with them, then they should stick to them. Like I said, how much slower do you need to shoot a PB than 75 grains of 777 will impart (like I said, equivalent to about 88 grains of 2f Pyrodex) to keep it together.

Hank,

I'd like to give you an answer but I don't know how low one must go to keep it together. I don't think its a magic number for hollowpoints in general but some kind of function of cavity size, ogive, diameter, and weight. I deferred to sproulman because he said he experienced single exit holes with 80 grains of 2F black powder. My sense, though I don't know without testing, is that 65 to 70 gr T7 will yield similar velocities.

Hank continues:

This load drives the Hornady XTP hollowpoints, 300 grainers,very nicely and my boys have killed several with them. No blowups, through bone, hole in and a hole out w/ great blood trail; excellent performance. I don't think the extra 5 grains provided that much enhancement. The improvement is in the overall construction on the bullet.

I agree. A pure lead bullet really doesn't need a hollow point. The powerbelts have a huge hollow point cavity and it just peels back to quickly. It is my opinion that pure lead conicals are best when they are very heavy and have no hollow point.

If you go to the powerbelt website and down load a ballistics chart you will find the minimum loadis 100 grains pyrodex.http://www.powerbeltbullets.com/docs/balchart.pdf .They seem to be recommendingslinging the 195gr.45 cal powerbelts at 2487 fps. That is just insane.I am afraid that it is much easier to determine what is to much charge than what is just right. In any event, these light powerbelt bullets aren't designed to catch game, they are designed to catch hunters who trust that they are suited for the purpose.

My original response was to Jaybe who seemed frustrated about what to do. My intent was to suggest less than 100 grains charge, perhaps 80 as a starting point, AND use the 405 or 444 powerbelts. I honestly think the blowups wouldcease with this arrangement.

In your case, I wouldn't reduce the charge. Reducing the charge will reduce the energy of your bullet. Instead, I would use the XTP's, go to a heavier powerbelt (which will have more energy from that same charge than the 295 or the XTP), or use some other heavier conical with a solid point. Pure lead bullets really mushroom out and sectional density begins to plummet just as soon as the mushrooming begins. The heavier the bullet, the deeper the mushrooming bullet is going to go. The 295 PB pancakes so quickly that it just runs out of lead to mushroom with. I hope this helps.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Hey Hank,

It occurred to me that there is more I could share with you. Regarding penetration, sectional density plays a very important role. The 300grain XTP(.452) has a sectional density of .210. The Powerbelt has a sectional density of:

SD295PB=.210*(295/300)*(.45^2/.50^2)= .167

So right from the get go, the 295 PB will not get as much penetration as the XTP.

Now lets supposes you had a pre-rifled XTP which you could push down your barrel of 50 caliber. How heavy would it have to be, to match the 300 grain 45 cal. XTP for penetration? Answer:Heavy enough to have a SD of .210.

Weight50XTP= 300 *(.50^2/.45^2) = 370 grains

So a theoretical 50 cal 370 grain XTP will penetrate as deeply as the 300 grain 45 cal you've been shooting. If you want a full-bore pure lead conical to penetrate as deeply as the full-bore370 grain XTP, it will have to be bigger than 370 grains. This is because the pure lead bullet is going to mushroom to greater diameter more quickly which has the effect of more rapidly losing sectional density (the area of the nose of the pure lead bullet is growing faster than the XTP). By going to a heavier conical we start with a higher sectional density, meaning that, the 400+ grain bullet is capable of having greater sectional density than the 370 XTP even after it begins to expand!

Full-bore pure lead conicals really need to be heavy to get the most out of them. I hope this also helps.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

I agree with you. I used a 345 gr aerotip, 115grs./trp. 7 at about 40 yds, and it completely came apart, not even a mark on the opposit side. Would never have made a fatal shoulder shot. I read that shock waves didn't open up enough, but from these pics. they look pretty good to me.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Is the TC shockwave, and the Hornady SST the exact same bullet? Does Hornady
Make them both?

Thanks,
Rusty