Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Hey guys,
Some recovered bullets for you to see. The ones on the left are 250 grain shockwaves. The one on the right is a 295 grain power belt. Both the shockwaves were fromdeer at around 100 yards. The bullet on the extreme left was actually head on, head down feeding. The bullet went in between the shoulder blades, through the spine, through the vitals and came to rest under the skin on a buttcheak. The second shockwave went in just behind the shoulder and came to rest under the skin on the opposite buttcheak on a 180# buck. over 90% weight retention in both, but the spine shot took allot of damage to the front of the bullet. The other was a very nice mushroom. I shoot 110 grains of 777 and it is a great load in my encore.
The power belt, from a deer killed with my kids gun, well it just exploded. Normally, we shoot 300 grain Hornady XTPs inmy kidsgun, but we had run out and there weren't any locally. The PBs shoot pretty much the same poi inside 100 yards.I had sworn offPBs because of similar experiences two years ago, but figured with low power loads in my kids gun it would be ok. Not. 75 grains of 777 and the deer was broadside at 50 yards. Bullet went inbetween the ribs, exploded into three big pieces. Two made it all the way through, one, the base stopped just under the skin on the other side. Left bits and pieced of brass and lead all the way through. Same thing I saw two years ago. Needless to say, were back to the XTPs for my kids gun.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Interesting report. The more folks (including me) use these Shockwaves, the more I'm thinking they are one of the best all around bullets made. On the Powerbelt, have you ever tried the Aerotip version? They are generally considered to be a tougher bullet than the hollowpoint.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Very interesting,I just lost interest in Power Belts,does anyone know how the Sabor tooth preforms on deer?
or the 200gr 40cal Shock Wave?

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

There is no difference between the "aerotip" and regular, with the exception that it has a little plastic "thang" stuck in it.

The two I killed with them two years ago were almost exactly the same. Number one, broadside, the bullet went in, broke into about 4 large pieces and all made it through. The other, broadside at about 60 yards, the bullet went in, literally exploded inside the ribcage into fingernail size pieces. NONE made it all the way through. Of course it caused massive damage to the lungs and heart and the deer was extremly dead extremely fast, but had it hit the shoulder instead of behind it, I am convinced that it would have been a very ugly, and unrecovered deer, story.
My personaly opinion is that these bullets are too soft and the copper plating waaay to thin. If they would address this, probably would perform better.
R
Hank

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

WOW!! thanks for the report and pictures. I think from now on I will stick with the Shockwaves and leave the expensive powerbelts behind. By the way it sounds like you have a lot of venison for the freezer.

That Shockwaves, from all I hear about it, has to be one of the best all around projectiles out there. Anyone have experience with the 200 grain Shockwave and deer I'd sure like to know. My Wolverine LK-II is in love with them things. I've never shot anything that accurate out of a muzzleloader.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Both deer that I shot with Powerbelt 245 Aerotips this year had two holes in them. One going in and one coming out! I was hoping to recover a bullet but both were complete pass throughs.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Although I don't personally use the Powerbelts, a lot of Colorado elk hunters do.The 348 gr. is the most popular, and those who use the Aerotip almost universally report more penetration and less expansion than those who use the hollow point. This is somewhat the opposite of CF bullets that have a "ballistic tip"; which tends to promote more rapid expansion than a lead tip bullet.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

And also in Colorado, sabots are not legal......

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

i used 250-3000 sav for hunting deer here in pa. guess what bullet i use, 87 gr. people say, sproul thats to light. well, when i hit a deer ,it goes down. i seen many heavy bullets go thru deer and deer run. experts all say you want hole out both sides, not true. shock of my 87 gr bullet drops deer. yes, i cant hit the deer in bone area, behind shoulder and neck. i have not used the PB but i would pick it over the solid tip bullet everytime for deer size . this was passed down from my grandfathers years ago. today if deer runs , you most likely lose it to someone else. not with the light bullets in right place, down they go.on deer ,you want shock not a hole.bigger game , i would use the solid tip where you need bone breaking but not on whitetail deer. take care

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Sabots are allowed during any of the Colorado rifle seasons. And also in New Mexico, where we hunt each year. In Colorado, during the designated MZ season, I use the 410 gr. Hornady Great Plains bullet over a MMP Ballistic Bridge sub base. A realiable 150 yard elk load. Thanks for pointing out the regulation specifics. Roskoe.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Nice information: I used the powerbelt 225gr. aero-tip
had entrance hole & exit hole. But no blood trail but
got lucky and found him about 80 yards away. I
just got an tc omega & have heard they will shoot
the shockwaves very well going to find out this
Sat. I would also like some information on the shock
waves and what they do on whitetail deer.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

sproulman


Do you realize with the small 250-3000 - 87 grain bullet you are producing 3100 feet per second and 1900 foot pounds of energy from the muzzle and 100 yards still has 1484 fpe.This is very effective on thin skinned whitetail. The 250/3000 was designed for deer sized game and was the first comercial cartridge to reach the 3000 fps mark. It really is a whitetail/blacktail harvesting machine. Your small 87 grain bullet is producing more speed and more energy than a lot of ML projectiles at a 100 yards.

I am not sure what you mean by a solid tip bullet, but if you are referring the the Aerotip - Nosler has proven along time ago this is a very effective design. Their Ballastic Tip design started this whole thing. The tip causes expansion to occur by being driven back into the bullet.

Nosler says:
The ballistic tip is suppose to work better than a hollow point but offer a "Ballistic Coeff." that produces great down range effectiviness.

This I totally agree with - the hydrostatic shock created by a bullet going through soft tissue is my prime goal.

I prefer the 2 hole theory but I do want that tissue damage and shockyou speak of on the way through. A one hole shot on elk can on some occasions cause you a huge problem, but a two shot with that big exit hole will get your elk down a whole lot sooner and provide a blood trail.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Boy, what an informative post.:):) Thanks for sharing the pics. What's the saying? A picture is worth a thousand words. Yeah know, my friend has shot 3 doe with the Power Belts and hasn't had one passthru!! He drilled a small doe during the last Sat of the season for freezer meat in the ribs at 40 yards. I recall him saying that he was just using 100 gr of Pyrodex. Surprisingly, even this shot did NOT pass thru.

Yep, after doing a little research on the net reading similar stories, I concluded that I'll never shoot the PowerBelts....well, maybe at a chuck or two, but never at a deer.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

This is all very interesting, indeed. Seems like PB's are something you either love or hate. I have a friend who kept telling me all season, "I think I'm going to stop using those Powerbelts - they're designed to blow up on deer." But he killed 6 deer with them this year!
I bought them because I couldn't find anything else I could get down my barrel - at least not without at least a minute of SERIOUS effort. I didn't get a chance to shoot a deer this year, so my opinion is still in the theoretical stage.
Does anyone know of a bullet/sabot combination of about the same outside dimensions of a Powerbelt? From what everyone says, they are obviously slightly smaller - but how much smaller? I guess I need to spring for one of those digital calipers to find out for myself.
Keep the information coming; it's really helpful.

IM jaybe :)

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

jaybe

What gun are you shooting?

I wrote this in response to another PowerBelt question and I really believe it. There is not a valid reason to struggle to get sabots down - it is matter of getting the right bullet combination...

I am going to run a couple of experiments this weekend involving fouling and seating sabots,I only have t7 powder but a lot of the complaints are coming from the fouling incurred while shooting t7.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Thanks for the pictures and taking the time to find the bullets. Great info.

Tom

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

I kind of wondered about all these loading problems,I really don't see much differance between PB, Sabor Tooth and the Shock Waves or several other sabotsand XTP bullets in my three sabot guns as far as loading is concerned. Most of them will shoot 3 inchs or under with the right load but the shock waves shoot best in my Omega Especaly the 50/40 200gr for 200 yd group.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

here are some cool pics of recovered bullets i found on the web
http://www.thebuckskinner.com/deerrectest.html

the pic is of bullets recovered from a bullet box or trap.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Revealing pic of that Power Belt! I think a round ball would have held together better......

Now, as to this expansion business. A 50 caliber bullet does NOT have to expand to do its work. Nor do any of the larger ML bullets.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Jaybe said:

"This is all very interesting, indeed. Seems like PB's are something you either love or hate. I have a friend who kept telling me all season, "I think I'm going to stop using those Powerbelts - they're designed to blow up on deer." But he killed 6 deer with them this year! "

I actually discussed the PB blow up problem with the Powerbelt folks. First, it is really only a problem with the lighter bullets. Second, retailers and hunters alike demand them. So powerbelt is going to make as many of the light hollowpoints they care to market (to retailers) and retailers are going to sell as many of them (to hunters) as they possibly can.

My local Walmart got smart and ordered nothing but .50 295's. Thankfully, hunters made them eat them. The last I priced them on clearance they were selling for $4.00 a 16 pack. I hope no one plans to use them for Elk next year. They are legal for Elk, unfortunately.

If I may. It seems we often paint with a VERY broad paint brush here. PB's don't inherently blow up. Really they don't . Shove 3 pyrodex pellets in your gun followed by a 245 powerbelt behind it. And yes, it is going to blow up. What does one expect? Its hollow cavity is half as deep as the bullet is long. (I think it was sabotloader who called them "glorified roundballs"). We really need reason here.

Jaybe, if you like shooting powerbelts but are concerned about them holding together when you hit deer with them, as I see it, you have two choices.

1. Avoid all powerbelts and look for another suitable bullet.

2. Avoid making the mistakes others are making by overpowering underweighted hollowpoint bullets. Try reducing yourcharges and increasing the weights of the powerbelts you are shooting.I think you will be more than pleasantly surprised when you see the terminal performance of a 405 or 444 grain powerbelt.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Nice pics. I doubt the testing was fair and unbiased though. That site sells PR bullets.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Phil,
You make some outstanding points and prior to seeing this bullet, I would have agreed with you. Remeber, the two I said blew up on me were with a 295 grain PB, I seem to remember that one of them may have had an aero tip, charged by 2 50 grain pellets of 777.

But, the one in the picture, also a 295 grain PB was only charged by 75 grains of 777. Like I said previously, I thought the problem was with too hot a load as well, that is why I figured it would be ok with the lighter load. 75 grains of 777 is equivalent to about 88 grains, orso,of pyrodex. So, just how low does one have to go to keep a 295 grain PB from blowing up?

R
Hank

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

any hollow point bullet driven at high speed will blow up.for deer, thats not good but if hit in right spot, its all over. if i was shooting in-lines at those high speeds, i would only shoot the heavy powerbelts, nothing 295 and under. now, for us flintlock 50 cal tc hawkins i have, the 295 gr hollow point powerbelt is great. BUT i only shoot around 80 gr. of 2f geox, no kick and they shoot real nice. i still use the MAXI-BALL 370 as they balance better in flight but we have used the 295 pwerbelts and they worked fine and came out the other side of our bucks.fast speed and light bullets HOLLOW POINT ,is a no no. solid point, no problem at fast speed even if it is a LIGHT bullet .but again, you must make the good shots,nothing in the bones.thats why the 370 MAXI-BALL is my favorite. running buck in our drives is history with the 370 maxi-ball as we dont have to get the best shot behind shoulder.take care.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Hank wrote:

So, just how low does one have to go to keep a 295 grain PB from blowing up?


Hank,

I agree with sproulman, he has actually used them for hunting.

In terms of velocity, 80 grains of 2f is probably equivalent to 65 - 70 grains T7. Even so, with the 295's you don't want to hit bone as it could prevent entrance to the vitals. I like his choice of conical better than powerbelt, but that is my opinion and his recommendation is from experience. T/C, Buffalo, Precision Rifle, Hornady all make good conicals.

Heavier hollowconicals withstand breaking up better than lighter ones for two reasons.

1. Lower velocity

2. There is more lead to mushroom with.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Phil,
If you read my original post, it is pretty obvious that I have used them for hunting too. My comments, and pictures are only to inform. If someone is having great luck with them, then they should stick to them. Like I said, how much slower do you need to shoot a PB than 75 grains of 777 will impart (like I said, equivalent to about 88 grains of 2f Pyrodex) to keep it together. This load drives the Hornady XTP hollowpoints, 300 grainers,very nicely and my boys have killed several with them. No blowups, through bone, hole in and a hole out w/ great blood trail; excellent performance. I don't think the extra 5 grains provided that much enhancement. The improvement is in the overall construction on the bullet.

That is where I was coming from with the comment on just how low do you have to load them to keep em from blowing up? If 88 grains of 2f blows up, what about 75? Just how low does one have to load a 295 grain PB to keep it from blowing up? Who knows.

But, as I stated earlier, PBs need two or three improvements that would go a long way to improve their performance.

First, get rid of the hollowpoint. I agree that it is nothing more than a fancy conical. Treat it that way. If it is going to keep the ridiculously thin plating and softness then it needs to be a solid.

Second, if it just HAS to be a hollow point, reduce the size of thecavity in the bullet. The thing is cavernous. I am sure it improve performance w/ this improvement.

Third, increase the thickness of the jacket. At least around the base. Give the central lead mass some support to keep the thing together.

Hmmmm, smaller hollowpoint, thicker jacket; I just described the Hornady XTP, like I said in my original post, I'll just stick to them from now on.
R
Hank

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

but until that happens, in the in-lines using powerbelts, i would use the heavy powerbeltsnot reduce charge.you want most out of those in-lines.take care.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

ahanskter wrote:

If you read my original post, it is pretty obvious that I have used them for hunting too. My comments, and pictures are only to inform. If someone is having great luck with them, then they should stick to them. Like I said, how much slower do you need to shoot a PB than 75 grains of 777 will impart (like I said, equivalent to about 88 grains of 2f Pyrodex) to keep it together.

Hank,

I'd like to give you an answer but I don't know how low one must go to keep it together. I don't think its a magic number for hollowpoints in general but some kind of function of cavity size, ogive, diameter, and weight. I deferred to sproulman because he said he experienced single exit holes with 80 grains of 2F black powder. My sense, though I don't know without testing, is that 65 to 70 gr T7 will yield similar velocities.

Hank continues:

This load drives the Hornady XTP hollowpoints, 300 grainers,very nicely and my boys have killed several with them. No blowups, through bone, hole in and a hole out w/ great blood trail; excellent performance. I don't think the extra 5 grains provided that much enhancement. The improvement is in the overall construction on the bullet.

I agree. A pure lead bullet really doesn't need a hollow point. The powerbelts have a huge hollow point cavity and it just peels back to quickly. It is my opinion that pure lead conicals are best when they are very heavy and have no hollow point.

If you go to the powerbelt website and down load a ballistics chart you will find the minimum loadis 100 grains pyrodex.http://www.powerbeltbullets.com/docs/balchart.pdf .They seem to be recommendingslinging the 195gr.45 cal powerbelts at 2487 fps. That is just insane.I am afraid that it is much easier to determine what is to much charge than what is just right. In any event, these light powerbelt bullets aren't designed to catch game, they are designed to catch hunters who trust that they are suited for the purpose.

My original response was to Jaybe who seemed frustrated about what to do. My intent was to suggest less than 100 grains charge, perhaps 80 as a starting point, AND use the 405 or 444 powerbelts. I honestly think the blowups wouldcease with this arrangement.

In your case, I wouldn't reduce the charge. Reducing the charge will reduce the energy of your bullet. Instead, I would use the XTP's, go to a heavier powerbelt (which will have more energy from that same charge than the 295 or the XTP), or use some other heavier conical with a solid point. Pure lead bullets really mushroom out and sectional density begins to plummet just as soon as the mushrooming begins. The heavier the bullet, the deeper the mushrooming bullet is going to go. The 295 PB pancakes so quickly that it just runs out of lead to mushroom with. I hope this helps.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Hey Hank,

It occurred to me that there is more I could share with you. Regarding penetration, sectional density plays a very important role. The 300grain XTP(.452) has a sectional density of .210. The Powerbelt has a sectional density of:

SD295PB=.210*(295/300)*(.45^2/.50^2)= .167

So right from the get go, the 295 PB will not get as much penetration as the XTP.

Now lets supposes you had a pre-rifled XTP which you could push down your barrel of 50 caliber. How heavy would it have to be, to match the 300 grain 45 cal. XTP for penetration? Answer:Heavy enough to have a SD of .210.

Weight50XTP= 300 *(.50^2/.45^2) = 370 grains

So a theoretical 50 cal 370 grain XTP will penetrate as deeply as the 300 grain 45 cal you've been shooting. If you want a full-bore pure lead conical to penetrate as deeply as the full-bore370 grain XTP, it will have to be bigger than 370 grains. This is because the pure lead bullet is going to mushroom to greater diameter more quickly which has the effect of more rapidly losing sectional density (the area of the nose of the pure lead bullet is growing faster than the XTP). By going to a heavier conical we start with a higher sectional density, meaning that, the 400+ grain bullet is capable of having greater sectional density than the 370 XTP even after it begins to expand!

Full-bore pure lead conicals really need to be heavy to get the most out of them. I hope this also helps.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

I agree with you. I used a 345 gr aerotip, 115grs./trp. 7 at about 40 yds, and it completely came apart, not even a mark on the opposit side. Would never have made a fatal shoulder shot. I read that shock waves didn't open up enough, but from these pics. they look pretty good to me.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Is the TC shockwave, and the Hornady SST the exact same bullet? Does Hornady
Make them both?

Thanks,
Rusty

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Rusty in MO.

As far as most of know they are the same, but with a different colored tip and different sabots. The TC sabots are suppose to be thinner than the SST sabots. This is not always the case though because TC contracts more than one company to make sabots for them. It has caused more than a few headaches.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

talking the tc hawkins .50 cal flintlock. here is what i like about powerbelts, say 295. i dont like recoil. your shots here in pa. with flintlock will be a max of hundred yards with open sights. thats it. most of the bucks i got were around 60 yards in last 45 years .i use the MAXI-BALL 370 gr. not the MAXI-HUNTERS. why, they are cheaper than the powerbelts .i get 20 for 6 dollars, unlubed.18 dallorsfor 20 powerbelts. BOTH shoot great out of my hawkins. back to subject,you can load up to 100 grs with 2f on the 370 maxi-ball. it will not fall apart. if you load the powerbelts 295up to 100 grs, they will explode. why, no HOLLOW POINT. i LIKE the 295 gr hollow point powerbelt because i can load it lower and i know it will OPEN up.thats great. you can load your flintlock open sights with less powder. i LIKE that because i dont like all that recoil and i shoot better too. recoil can make a lot of us JERK on pulling trigger. you DONT need all that velocity on a 100 yard shots on WHITETAIL DEER with OPEN sights. now, on to in-lines where you may want that extra 50 yards, to 150 with scope, i would shoot bullets over 300 grs and hottest load that would work. you want to get flatest shooting when you have to reach out to 150 yards.so, i would go with 348 powerbelt or 370 maxi-ball . you want heavy bullet with higher velocity.take care.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

The problem is, at least in my Omega, and others I have talked to, the powerbelts seem to lose accruacy with heavier charges of powder. My personal gun shoots 5 inch groups at 25 yards when I go above 105 grains of 777.

My current elk load is 95 grains 777 behind a 405 grain powerbelt. Plenty of power to take down an elk to at least 120 yards, which is my maximum PERSONAL distance for any muzzleloading shot. I love the primative nature, and scopes and 150-200 yard shots are not MY cup of tea.

As you stated, I also don't like the recoil produced with higher charges, and since I don't have to have them to take elk cleanly in Colorado (no sabots) I am just happy as a clam.

However, I will probably be trying the 444 grain flat nose. If they shoot well, I may switch to them. Hopefully they will shoot well in front of 85-105 grains of Black Mag 3.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

true, youre right on. my .50cal hawkins flintlock .l shoot the 370 maxi-ball not maxi -hunter better at 80 grs than 100. so does my other one ,same caliber. i bought 2 in 1971 for 119 dollars. i had older one that i sold. you dont need all that power in muzzleloader UNLESS you are shooting a bullet that needs to open and is light. like roundball, i would shoot more powder than my maxi-ball because of its massetc. i think the powerbelt 295 in .50 cal flintlock, open sights at LOW CHARGE is a great thing for deer in flintlock.only reason i dont use them , is cost.if cheaper like MAXI-BALLS , I would use them. talk to cayugag on in-lines. i am not a pro at those on groups etc but i do know my velocity and what happens to bullet when it hits a WHITETAIL deer. best advice i could give anyone on powerbelts on WHITETAIL deer,isthis, LOWER CHARGES ON FLINTLOCK and use 295 gr,and on the in-lines, use as high as you can CHARGES that group good and use a HEAVY POWERBELT, 348 and up. take care.

RE: Some recovered bullets, two shockwaves and a powerbelt
 

Just as a point of interest,more because the information we exchange here helps make decisions sometimes. I have found and read onhere that 777 can melt the plastic used on PB's if the load is large enough. when I was running the powdere ladder with them I looked at the plastic rings and some of them showed signs of doing so. I ran the powder ladder with APP and did not find that even at 150 gr as a matter of fact the 245 pb shot best at 150APP FF.Not that I would use them on deer afer what I have read here that load would be too heavey. Lee