modern muzzel loading
 

we just found out this week you can hunt with a 45-70 cal. gun with smokeless powder,but the gun has to have a exposed hamer. i asked the game warden about the savage rifle with smokeless powder but he said he would have to check on that.

RE: modern muzzel loading
 

Hunt in what state and during what season?

RE: modern muzzel loading
 

Mississippi I think. The primitive season.

RE: modern muzzel loading
 

I amNOT a traditionalist andshoot a Knight Disc rifle and an Ultimate Firearms BP Xpresswhich Ifeelare pushing the envelope in a primitive season, but a 45/70 and Savage smokeless is WAY over the edge in my opinion. That kind of takes the "primitive" out of it. It may be time toback up and regroup when it comes to a "primitive" season.

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If the state needs to trim out the heard let them make the rules. The bioligist know more than we do.

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i live in north mississippi,we can use a crossbow also but only in primitive season and gun season.I was at the sporting goods store monday and the owner said he had sold all ten of the 45-70 guns and has a list with 16 names on it wanting one also. i would like to get a savage but can't aford one right now.My taxidermist is almost done with my deer head ,i can hardly wait.

RE: modern muzzel loading
 

i live in north ms.

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I dont see the problem with a savage , as long as smokeless is NOT used .

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I TOTALLY agree, BUT who is buying them to shoot pyrodex or T7? No one that I have heard of.

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It has nothing to do with "buckskinners" or doing it the hard way or anyother "primitive" methods. The reasons are to encourage more harvests. MS (and most anyother southern state) is about 15 years behind the curve with respect too proper harvests and eliminating over-abundant animals. This is why they are encouraging use of such weapons. I quit hunting north MS about 10 years ago because of the poor health of the herd (simply to many animals) and despite our best mgmt techniques we just couldn't produce animals much over 130". (That and the redneck poachers are RAMPANT in this state!)

For most of the 80s and throughout the first half of the 90s the state was to strict in antlerless harvests and now they are panicking because the herd has gotten out of control. The densities per square mile are higher than anyother single state in the U.S. Even having the greatest deer biologist within their own boundaries (Dr. Jacobs at MS State Univ.) wasn't enough for those thickheads. They wanted deer!

Well by God they got em now!!! :D
RA

RE: modern muzzel loading
 

I have never heard of "rampant" poaching and an over population of deer. I am assuming the "redneck poachers" are only buck hunters. In my area where the poachers are active, they are not gender specific. They follow the "if it's brown; it's down" philosophy, and in certain parts of the county, deer numbers reflect it.

In my opinion, there has got to be another way to encourage deer harvest than corrupting a "special" season.

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How is the shooting the "Ultimate" more primive than the Savage w/smokeless?

PYRODEX........invented 1975
SMOKELESS POWDER.......invented 1886

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I don't care what anyone uses, I am too concerned with how my rigs are shooting and my game.

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jcchartboy,
I bet you are a Savage smokeless shooter. Did you read my whole post that you are turning back on me? I only stated my OPINION. Thanks for the history lesson.

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It shouldn't cause much flack...with what most are hunting with anyway.

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Honestly Retrieverman whether or not I am a Savage shooter should have nothing to do with the legitimaticy of the discussion. (Yes,I am..FYI).

Yes, I read your entire statement.

No, Iam notturning anything back on you. I simply wanted to know what was the basis of your opinion. I felt it was not grounded in fact, or possibly it was based on misinformation. (I would still like to hear it).

I just don't understand why some people attempt to turn the "smokeless" issue into another divisive point amongst hunters.

It is called "Muzzleloader" season in most states for a reason. If it were blackpowder season then obviously smokeless would not belong. Of course then none of the black powder substitutes would either.

As far as a primitive season goes it should be straight forward.... The state should pick a designateddate in time, any hunting implements which were created/invented beforesaid timeshould then be considered a legalfirearm for the taking of game.

There is absolutely no historical reason,(at least that I can see, please inform me if I am missing something), that BP alternatives should be allowed in a primitive season while smokelesswould not.

Primitive Season should either be historically correct, or not.

Muzzleloader owners should fight together for common goals. Not with each other over which propelent is being used.

RE: modern muzzel loading
 

jcchartboy
Once again, I stated my OPINION and stand by it. If I want to shoot smokeless, I will pull out my 300 WSM. I have been prejudiced by the attitudes of someof your Savage shooting brothers on other forums, so we might as well agree to disagree becauseno one is changing my mind on this one.

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It sounds like the State of Mississippi has a real deer herd population problem. Speaking from the State of Wisconsin that had a similar deer herd population problem, Mississippi is looking for ways to lower the population and do it real fast. I am sure that is the reason for the introduction of a 45/70 government being allowed into their primitive season.

What were the requirement of the primitive season before these new decisions were made? I mean, what was and was not allowed? I think what is sticking in the minds of some of us forum members is the word primitive. When many of us think primitive, we think in terms of the flintlocks, and early model sidelock percussion caps. It is apparent that Mississippi on the other had has a different idea of how the term primitive is used. And that's fine as long as that deer herd is reduced. The State will regulate their deer herd and hunting requirements in any way they see fit.

Wisconsin as many people know suffered a severe outbreak of Chronic Waste Disease a.k.a. CWD. The disease has been spreading to different parts of the State and increasing in size the number of counties effect every year. If you have ever seen a deer with the suspected disease, it is not a pretty sight. Our StateDepartment of Natural Resourceshas tried to blame this outbreak on everything from people importing out of State animals to some Sports Hunting Ranches for herd improvement, to large numbers of deer populations that live and interact in close proximity, to about anything else they can think of. I think Mississippi is trying to nip their herd population problem in the bud before it really is, a problem. It also sounds like they are basing the requirements of the weapons being allowed during this hunt on the velocity of the rifles and the number of rounds they can fire. I am not sure on this point.

As for the direction of the thread turning to Smokeless rifles and other such rifles, I think it is getting off line of the reason for the thread.I see no benefit of rehashing something that people have an opinion on and refuse to change their mind. It benefits no one and only causes hard feelings in some cases on the forum... use what you like. I am not competing with anyone out there. Just my two cents.

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Retrieverman, I am all for people stating thier opinions, but hope I am not stepping on your toes by asking, why do you care what anybody is using? I have enough trouble taking care of my own gear than to worry about what some guy in New Jersey is using.

RE: modern muzzel loading
 

So I CAN hunt with my Browning High Wall .45/70, but NOT with my Ruger No. 1? Both using ammo from the same box??

Bloody ridiculous!!

I see that the inmates are still running the asylum!!

RE: modern muzzel loading
 

bigcountry
I wear steel toed boots and I could notcare less if you or anyone here shootsBB guns during the primitive or any other season. What ever floats your boat. This is SUPPOSED to be an open forum where OPINIONS can be expressed by anyone. I do have some prejudices that I stated which are not changing, but as long as the law allows it;SHOOT IT!!!

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I want clarification on this. I canhunt deer in Mississippi witha T/C Encore with a 45/70 cartridgebarrelduring the primitive season. Correct?

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Cayugad, I also agree.

For Michigan, smokeless powder is not allowed in muzzleloading season nor is any type of firearmthat is not loaded from the muzzle unless it's a black powder pistol. Black powder or Black Powder Substitutes Only.
However, you can use smokeless powder in your ML if designed for it during our regular firearm season.

Looks like MS has elected to include the 45/70 to also incorporate folks shooting single shot stylesfrom the latter 1800's? And as an extra measure to help reduce and control the herd.

On the smokeless powder off topic during muzzleloading seasons,I'm notfor it but I'm not against someone that legally does either.

Almostall of the muzzleloaders that folks will carry in the field are not designed for smokeless powder use.

So anything regulation wise that allows for smokeless powder to be handloaded in the field in ML seasonswould be inviting more accidents in my view. Sure the regs could say "only if your rifle was designed for smokeless or even go as far as to recommend specific models", but I think the end result would be more folks making mistakes and using smokeless powders in ML's not designed for it.

Which will result in more folks getting killed or injured.

Plus, with smokeless powdersthat really opens up the door for extended lethal ranges far beyond black powder or BP substitutes capabilitieswhich from a safely perspective does not make sense to me.

M2C

RE: modern muzzel loading
 

Like I said retrieverman,the post wasn't attackingyou or telling you can't exchangeideas. I am all for that. I justalways wondered why I seepeople on all guns forums or even bow forums worry enought to even post, "that a smokeless should not be in this season" or whatever.

I post all the time that I don't think crossbows should notbe allowed in regular bow season. But my reason is selfish. My bow season is pretty nice with very few hunters. People allowed to use crossbows would put more competition out there.

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I guess what sparked my question, is I was reading on muzzleloadingforum.com with there new format, and just sit back andlaugh. These guys put so much effort in convincing people that they can kill just as easywith thier lymans flinter, andthenonanother postexplain how using a inline is not fair causeof there performance??? Doesn't make any sense to me other than they are saying anything they can to convince people thatsidelocks or flinters are the only weaponpeople should use.

I myself can't say I have killed any more effective with my inlines or 2000fps loads.

RE: modern muzzel loading
 

Here is something wecan agree on. I killed 8 deer last year in two states and actually killed more with my Knight than I did my 300 WSM, but that may have been because I carried my Knight more (only 1 was killed during "muzzleloader" season). Of the 8,all were killed within 75 yards andonly 1 took a step after being shot. I put alot more stock in shot placement than the weapon. Both my sons killed their first deer with 64 gr 223's with neck shots. I truly believe that if I hunted with "traditional" equipment that I could kill as many deer as I do usingmy Knight or 300 WSM, and I might just try it.

RE: modern muzzel loading
 

yep, I hunt mostly state parks where only ML are allowed. So half are with bow, and then 40% are with ML, and then maybe the odd one behind my house with a rifle or sluggun.

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That is all I wanted to make clear......thanks for helping me clarify.

You statement is based purely on opinion and has no basis in fact.
You are also prejudiced against a form of propellent based on the people that shoot it.

Thanks for sharing your OPINIONS.

RE: modern muzzel loading
 

Just a point in fact. The gun Retriever states he is using " the ultimate"wich is aBP substitute muzzleloader, advertises itself as capable of the following.....

I know of no smokeless muzzleloaders shooting projectiles at that distance. Following your logic that would make the BP substitutes the dangerous propellent and the smokeless propellants more desirable from a safety perspective.

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Let me makemy position here clear......

For once I actually agree with Bigcountry. I don't care who is shooting what whenever.

However as a smokeless muzzleloading user it is my resposibility to interject when a post contains baseless, false or misleading information about its use.

I made it clear in my first post that I believe that hunters who treat this as a divisive issue are doing the muzzleloading community as a whole a great diservice.

I believe this board supports the honest dissemination of information, and the common goals of hunter freedoms and access. Any posts that seem to run contrary to those goals should be questioned in an understanding manner.

RE: modern muzzel loading
 

So you can't agree to disagree. Yes, I shoot an Ultimate Firearms BP Xpress that has a Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20 scope on it. I shoot 200 gr Pyrodex pellets and 300 gr Hornady SST bullets and have grouped myself under 1" at 100 and under 1 1/2" at 200 (the range I use is only 200 yards). EVERY TIME Ultimate Firearms is mentioned on ANY forum someone wants to start fight and this time it is you. Well, I like my gun, and itperforms EXACTLY as the factory described. To be honest, the way I hunt the Ultimate gun is overkill. I have a Knight Extreme that actually gives me all I needin a BPgun. Basically, I can do with my Ultimate gun and Pyrodex what you are doing with your Savage and smokeless.To each his own, shoot it and enjoy.

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As a smokeless muzzleloading user, what have I said about smokeless that is baseless, false or misleading about the use of smokeless powder? Other than that I feel it is over the edge in a primitive season, I have said nothing about smokeless. You are the one trying to fuel this fight.

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I clearly already established in my first post that the following statement is baseless....YOUAGREED.....stating thatyour statement wasonly "your opinion."

My point is further supported by the fact that Smokeless powder ACTUALLY PREDATES PYRODEX BY ALMOST A CENTURY!


Concerning...
You clearly have some deep seated issues here. As a result of a post comparing ballistics between two similar guns, you would now like to use the word "fight" to describe simple comparisons of facts.

I believe this is the second time that you use the word "fight" in less than two paragraphs. I am still unclear why you feel threatened...?

I will repeat my previous post..
I made it clear in my first post that I believe that hunters who treat this as a divisive issue are doing the muzzleloading community as a whole a great diservice.

I believe this board supports the honest dissemination of information, and the common goals of hunter freedoms and access. Any posts that seem to run contrary to those goals should be questioned in an understanding manner.

RE: modern muzzel loading
 

Finally.... back to the subject at hand now.....

I recently saw this posted on another Muzzleloading board...

"The regs are about to change in Mississippi, allowing single-shot breechloaders (.38 cal. min) such as a .38-55, .45-70, .45-90 Sharps and high wall rifles loaded with smokeless cartridges to be used right alongside muzzleloaders in their "primitive" season. There has been a run on H & R Handi-Rifles as a result.

Yet, smokeless powder is NOT specifically legal in muzzleloaders.

If you are a smokeless muzzleloading shooter and care to support Mississippi with your tourism and hunting dollars, or care to support smokeless muzzleloading in general-- a FAX to 601-432-2187 would be helpful.

http://www.mdwfp.com/Level1/Intents.asp

You can also write if you wish; if you click on "Primitive Weapons" at the above url, you can read the specifics and get the proper address."


Regardless, of any personal feelings on the issue it is good to see shooters becoming more active in the polical/legislative processes as a result of membership on hunting boards like this one and many others...JC

RE: modern muzzel loading
 

jcchartboy

I sure wish you would just shoot your smokeless pole and let this go. You are not making any points with me for your smokeless case, as a matter of fact, my prejudiceshave deepened thanks to you.

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What's the beef then?
I'm not a smokeless fan...but with that rifle...you've no room to talk...Regardless of..."that's my opinion".

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Thanks Quigley,

As everyone else here has already realized I was never out to "score points", with anyone. In particular, certainly not a man who admittedly holds "prejudice" over an entire group of felllow muzzleloaders based on what propellent they use!

There is only twocorrect ways to adress any subject. Not at all, or based on fact and reason. If Retrieverman didn't want to to discuss the issue HE HIMSELF should never had brought it up in the first place.


Once Again Trying to get back to the original subject....

Here is an exmple of what will now be considered a primitive weapon in Missisippi..

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JCC, is that rifle a front loader? This is from the Mississippi Hunting Manual.

PRIMITIVE WEAPONS
Primitive weapons for deer hunting are defined as longbows, recurves or compound bows, single or double-barreled muzzleloading rifles of at least .38 caliber, or single or double-barred muzzleloading shotguns loaded with a single ball or slug. All muzzleloading primitive firearms must use black powder or a black powder substitute with either percussion caps or flintlocks. A “black powder substitute” is defined as a substance designed, manufactured and intended to be used as a propellant in muzzleloading or other black powder firearms, excluding modern smokeless powder.

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Your right Rebel...that WAS from the manual. Go back and read the post for all the info. Here is part of what itWILL read.....

Got to this page... http://www.mdwfp.com/Level1/Intents.asp then click "primitive weapons" for the actual legislation.

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Jcc, all I read was: NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE ADOPTION.
Nothing for the 2004-2005hunting season