Stone Cold

OK, I am at a loss. I do not know what to do next. I am going to let you guys know what I have done and hope that you can give me a direction to go in that I have not pursued yet.

The gun is a new CVA Optima Pro 1 to 28 twist. The scope is a new Red Head black powder scope. The powder is Triple Seven pellets. Distance is 100 yards.

I havebeen shooting my black powder for three days (for a total of 10 hours) trying to group the 250 gn. SST. In the past I have not really payed attention to cleaning between shots so this is how I began shooting. I cleaned my rifle very well and shot about six shots with 130 gns. and did not get under a 5.5" group. I went up to 150 gns. and did the same. I went down to 100 grns. and grouped about a 4" group. I went to 90 gns and grouped about a 6" group. After shooting up a bunch of bullets and powder I quit for the day. I did clean my rifle about every six shots.

One of my buddies told me that he thought it was the scope. Before I spend money on a better scope I decided to keep shooting. I went home and decided that I would pay close attention to cleaning my gun at the firing range.

At the firing range I cleaned my rifle well to start. I then loaded with100 gns. and a bullet and marked my rod at the depth needed to seat. My first shot was off the target where the day before I was shooting 4" grouping around the bulls. Being off the target surprised me but I chalked it up to the difference in a clean gun and one that was shot a couple times. I ran a bore snake through the barrel until I could see that it was visually clean. My next shot nearly stacked on top of the other. I thought that I was on to something. I ran the bore snake againg between shots and adjusted vertically. My next shot dropped exactly in line where I wanted it. Now I am excited. I ran the bore snake and adjusted horizontally. Now is where I got confused. The next two shots were 4.5" horizontal of each other and .5"vertical. I figured that it was time to clean the gun well again. I cleaned the gun very well and started shooting again with the same routine. With this routine I have not been able to group under 4".

Being that I am not a very experienced black powder shooter, but I am a very experienced shooter with other guns, could you please point me in my next direction.

Thanks

Okie48

Stone Cold I have the Optima also. I have had it for two years.When I first started shooting it I couldnt get a good group either, then after about 60 rounds it really started to come around. I use the tc shockwaves 250 grain bullets. I have found that my Optima likes 80 grains of loose ffg triple 7. I have a bushnell dusk to dawn on it now. I get great groups now. I also had good luck with the 300 grain sst shockwaves. I perfer the 250 grain bullets however.
I think after you get her broke in it will come around for you. You just got this rifle right???

cayugad

It could be attributed to a couple of things.
[ol][*]First off your rifle is brand new. Some, not all rifles, seem to need a break in period where during that time they just will not hit anything consistantly. I had a rifle like that and it about drove me nuts.[*]Another issue is your scope. Perhaps it is not mounted solid, or perhaps the optics in it are bad. I believe the Red Heads are the Tasco Brand (I was told).[*]Another issue is, perhaps the rifle just does not like the 250 grain SST although that would be strange because most rifles do shoot them well.[*]Finally the pellets might be bad. I seriously doubt this, but it does happen.[/ol]


[ol][*]I would get some J-B Bore Paste and scrub the barrel of the rifle real well. Then give it a good cleaning. This will help smooth out any ruff spots in the barrel if they exhist. The rifle being new just might need to be broke in.[*]If you doubt your scope on way to check it is to remove it and shoot over the open sights at 25 yards and see if the rifle will group with open sights. If it does then put the scope back on and it should also group at that same range with the same load. Another way is to have someone other then you shoot the rifle and see if it behaves like that for them. Check the mounts also. Or if you have a different scope around the house, throw that on and see what happens. All you are trying to do at this point is to rule out things that might be going wrong.[*]Try some projectiles other then the 250 grain SST's. I would suggest some 240 grain XTP's or some 375 grain Buffalo Bullet SSB sabots. You can buy them through Cabela's. My CVA Staghorn Magnum shoots them very well. Of course there are powerbelts, but I hate to recommend them because of the cost.[*]Last reference the powder, get some new pellets or even better, some loose powder. And see if that makes a difference. Again, all we are doing is taking and checking all phases of the shooting sequence. And at least you were smart enough to try different strength charges to see if that made a difference.[/ol]
The swabbing of the barrel is very important. This is especially true when sighting in. You want each shot to be as close the next to the way they are being shot. Swab the barrel between shots. I swab with with isopropyl alcohol and windshield washer mixture. What ever method works for you is good.

Personally I sight in my scopes at 25 yards. At that distance I want that rifle to shoot a ragged hole. Then I move back to fifty yard and so on until I am back as far at the longest shot I might have to take. Keep at it. And good luck with the rifle. You have a good one there.

skeeter 7MM

The single biggest thing I have found with accuracy in my inlines is swabbing between shots. I to use the same 50/50 mixture as cayugad, in a windex spray bottle. I run one damp patch down and 2 clean dry patchs then re-load. Try this to see if it helps.

Being your experienced with shooting I am sure you have checked your scope and mounts.

So it could be your Ml needs to be broken in or does not like the load combo in one or more areas. You have tried the variance of powder already so I would suggest trying one of the next following changes:
Different sabot, I have read or heard many a story where the TC shockwave was more accurate based on the sabot it is packaged with and/or vice versa (Hornady SST)in particular rifles due to a slightly different diameter. So since you have said your using the Hornady SST, I'll assume that it is the Hornady offering in regards to the sabot used! So you may want to pick a box of the TC Shockwaves, just to see if that is a potential.Like mentioned haven't heardof alot of troubles getting the TC Shockwave or Hornady SST 250's shooting well in a variety of ML's.

Next would be try a different bullet/sabot all together. The 240 xtp or Barnes Expanders seem to get the same reviews with decent groups but their are others. Since I have no experience with the ML you own I can't give you a lot of insight but I am sure their many who do and can helppoint you in the right direction.

I haven't usedT7 pellets a bunch but in my own inlines 100 or 2 x50 gr seemed to provide the best 100 yard accuracy. When I went higher it soured(never went lower). You may try pyrodex pellets, it could be for whatever reason your Ml doesn't like the T7??? Or even try some loose where you can tweak the charge additionally. PersonallyIuse looseto obtain the best accuracy/trajectory load for my hunting needs but certainly the 100 gr of either pellet has produced acceptable groups in mine and others ML I shoot with just a bit more limited in find the absolute best combo.

It could be the primer?? My rem shoots off with CCI 209 primers, so I usewinchester 209's. Meanwhile my kight shoots the same with either CCI or winnie primers. A pretty cheap T&E measure to try, just like reloading you never know what will make the difference.

Not sure it is of use to you but keep plugging and just like CF change only one thing at time! Best of Luck

herman

First thing i would do is take cayugad's suggestion and use some JB bore cleaner at least 200 strokes.Then would take others like skeeter's and try different bullets but first I would swab between shots,what I do is take a patch and lick it on one side run it down the barrel in short jabs,if you don't the patch is most likely to hang up in the barrel and sometimes you have to take the breech plug out just to remove the patch and ram rod,then I turn the patch over and run it down the barrel and back out and then reload.Another thing is to let the barrel cool between shots,sabots don't seem to like hot barrels.
If none of this helps post your results and one of us may be able to help you farther.

lonewolf5347

All of the above are excellent ideas,I would remove the scope and shoot iron sights at the 50 yard target and see how the gun groups

Triple Se7en

Put the snake back in the wife's garden &get a bore brush for swabbing & cleaning. I use two ramrods at the range. One has a jag for loading the bullet -- the other has a bore brush for swabbing. Swab after every 2nd shot. Use both sides of a wet Windex patch - then both sides of a dry patch.

Always usemild solutions like Windex or alcoholfor swabbing -- then use solvents that say they remove copper& plastic for cleaning.

Go back to 50 yards.Shoot once every five minutes in this hot weather. If things tighten back up, then go to 100 yards. If groups don't close, try another plastic sabot (50-pks)... anothersabot/bullet or another powder. If you try another powder, start with 70 grains& work up in 5-grain increments until groups spread. Don't be surprised if your best groups are around 85 grains. That's enough energy in that loadto kill deer out to 150 yards.

LarryFox1

Stone Cold one thing that seams to make a diffrence is, when you start the bullet make sure that a peddel is always started in the same place each time.in the barrel.I like to start mine off aline with the front sight each time,but the main thing is to aline in the same place each time
good luck

dvdegeorge

[quote]ORIGINAL: Triple Se7en

Put the snake back in the wife's garden &get a bore brush for swabbing & cleaning. I use two ramrods at the range. One has a jag for loading the bullet -- the other has a bore brush for swabbing. Swab after every 2nd shot. Use both sides of a wet Windex patch - then both sides of a dry patch.

Ditto Triple Se7en,you can't possibly clean a muzleloader with a bore snake!Try swabbing after every shot

herman

Why carry a windex bottle with you when a little spit will do.I realize everyone does things different and what works for one don't nessary work for another.
A fellow got me to zero his knight disc in last week,He brought the bullets (240 xtp,250 sst,and 245 PB) and t-7 pellets.
I was leary of the t-7 because I had shot over 4 lbs of it the summer before and didn't like it at all in 5 rifles.But he wanted to use them so I did.Started out with 2 pellets and the sst 250,spit patched after every shot,took 5 shots to zero @100 yds,let the barrel cool for a long time while I shot other rifles and the first 3-shot group was .998 in and the second group was 1.04 in.
Took the rifle and target back to him and he was happy.Some rifles it is easy to get to shoot good and some are not so lucky,sometimes you have to try a lot of different things just to get a 3in or better group.And to I haven't seen a knight rifle that didn't shoot ok.
Below is the kind of groups I strive for out of my muzzleloaders.