dont buy a valles caldera lottery ticket next year, boycott it untill the ethics are put in the lottery. I would really like to see NM get taken to court with the crap they pull by allowing more tags alloted to non-res that can afford(or want) to use a greedy outfitter. Why is this? what happened to the days when a guy could take his sons elk hunting in any state without being a rich person. Tradition needs to be upheld, elk hunting should not be a money making buisness on federal land where the common man is priced out of hunting. All non-res should be drawn from the same pool and get their babysitter outfitters afterwards. I have no respect for big outfitters that think that the federal lands should be their private hunting grounds. The way things are going hunting will be only for the rich if we dont start fighting for the right to keep the money out of elk hunting.
Just an example,the Federal government (all of us)purchased the Baca ranch, or Valles caldera area or new mexico. The ranch is holding its first hunt this year for huge bulls. They had a lottery at 25$ per ticket, no limit on the amount you could buy, one winning tag per person regardless of how many times his name is pulled. Heres where it gets ****ty, they allow the winning ticket winners to transfer or sell thier tags to anyone. So what you have is the outfitters submitting multiple tickets in every family and guides names to draw tags to sell on e-bay for 6-15k$ I saw one outfitter bragging that they aquired several tags this year!
Then to make things even less traditional to the sport of hunting, The ranch auctioned off 10 tags to the highest bidders in the best part of the ranch, that averaged 20,000$ from what i was told. Is this what are elk hunting on our(federal) land has become? I am sorry, i am not rich, or do not need a outfitter. I have nothing against them but i feel that if you want to use one that is fine, but it should not give you better odds at hunting on public federal land.
The only time an outfitter should have any advantage to a drawing is on private owned property.
Any one agree??

Seen this twice now and I hunt NM as a nonresident but some years I get drawn and some I don't. Biggest problem there is the state is a checkerboard of private mixed with public. After hunting a good spot for a decade I ran into outfitters who paid a landowner to hunt his property. OK but twice they saw me earlier than they were able to get clients up and tried to tell me that I was crossing THEIR property and don't think about doing it. I proceeded to tell them to KMA in front of their clients and showed them the map. I was on federal land and they knew it. Game officer said they had big problems with same outfit so hope they get license pulled. Bottom line is I think AZ and NM do a good job of balancing non-res and resident. Biggest problem is too much sex. Too many people screw up the draw and the habitat. Oh well. Also it's like anything else in America. Some people have enough money to buy anything and that is fine with me. Maybe I'll be able to afford a good outfitter someday. Good luck and shoot straight.

I do want to comment about the Baca ranch. You said the Federal goverment paid for the Ranch. Your only partially right. Alot of the money came from NM game and fish,sportsman in the state and private the Federal goverment only kicked in some of the money. It was proclaimed that the ranch be ran to not require any more money from the Goverment both State and Federal. Even though it is ran by the goverment there was no way the ranch could make it if they allowed limited access and make it just another Federal Forest. So the board that oversees the ranch came up with the idea of the Raffle tickets and the auctions so that it can self sufficient. I do know of several people that at least proclaimed to have purchased $1,000 in tickets. But none drew that I know. I do want to say that I am glad they made this place public instead of it going to the Jicarilla Apaches. It was going to be sold to them if the state did not buy it. If the Jicarrila had bought it the tags would be about $10,000 plus a registerd Jicarila guide would be required to hunt on their land. They bought the Chama Land and Cattle Company about 5 years ago along with a few more smaller ranches around the Chama area. Don't know about you but I much rather have a slim chance of hunting such a great spot as the Baca Ranch where at any time you can view 500+ head of elk.

Great Hunting this fall

i think i agree with dperry

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i think i agree with dperry
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> But that would be giving in for what isnt right. for one, if the indians had the money to buy it i dont have a problem with that, it was stold from them a long time ago anyway! but thats a different story. But settling for what the baca ranch has set up now is not good because the ranch operator stated in a article i read that this is a trial basis, and can be changed next year.
So on that note i think we should all write or e-mail the director of the ranch and let them know that we would like to see the winning lottery holders ticket be non-transferable! Let the winners win because they have a passion for hunting, not making money. here the info to voice your opinion..
Valles Caldera National Preserve Bull Elk Hunts
Public Lands Interpretive Association
6501 Fourth Street, Suite I
Albuquerque, NM 87107
Toll free: 1-877-851-8946 or 1-877-276-9404

Edited by - schmalts on 08/27/2002 07:50:01

You do have a good point about being non-transferable. But will they sell enough tickets to be self sufficient, if that occurs?

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You do have a good point about being non-transferable. But will they sell enough tickets to be self sufficient, if that occurs?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> I just got off the phone with them. they said they originaly estimated 70K$ in ticket sales, ended up with over 350K!! so i think they would do just fine. Also asked an accountant how much of the ranches purchase was state money, he said as far as he can tell NONE, but they do have some mineral rights. So to the post earlier that the state paid a large sum to help buy it needs to be prooved, but i bet no proof will be found , its federal land bought by federal money.
If you would like to call them and comment on the lottery call Dennis trijillo @505-661-3333
And one more thing, the hunting may be not as good as planned, they are fighting a 3000acre fire as i type this, and they are shorthanded on equipment to contain it. I urge all who read this to call and recommend that next years tickets be non-transferable unless a doctor documented health problem arises.

I don't know much about it.....all I know is I don't have the money to hunt in NM......

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I don't know much about it.....all I know is I don't have the money to hunt in NM......

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More reason for you to make the phone call, fight for what you believe is ethical and traditional hunting rights.........

The Dunigan family has given the government until the end of 1999 to buy the Baca Ranch. U.S. Sen. Pete Domenici has worked out a deal with the Clinton administration on how to manage the land if the government buys it. Domenici wants it operated like a working ranch and has said that he wants it to be self-sustaining. Domenici also wants the Baca Ranch to be run by a nine-member board of directors--New Mexicans with expertise in things like recreation, wildlife and grazing-- so that it won't be subject to normal rules and regulations that govern the operation of other federal lands. Domenici wants the ranch operated as a national preserve or a special unit within the National Forest Service. The $40 million that has been set aside so far has come from the Land and Water Conservation Fund. That fund gets its money from royalties on the sale of oil and gas.