338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Well it happened. I was on another board on Alaskan hunting and now the talk is that a 338 Winchester magnum is not enough gun for the Big Bears. It just seems that the older I get the more gun you have to have. I have older books written in the 80's that state the praise the virtue of the 338 Winchester magnum as a great Alaskan rifle.

These books show pictures of the great Kodiak Bears and the happy hunters next to his prize and the 338 Magnum in hand. Now the 338 is overshadowed by the 375 H-H magnum, 416 , and 458 Lott. I bet that it won’t be long that the 375 will suffer the same fate to the 416 and 458 mags. Who knows after we are all gone, maybe rail guns that shoot 1000 grain bullets at 8000 FPS.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Sounds like the application of African technology to the Alaskan setting for us on Dangerous Game --- just another chapter in "Old West Tech". I'm sure the 30-06 and 300WinMag enthusiasts were dismayed by the arrival of the 338WinMag. I'm sure the black powder dies hards at the turn of the century were dismayed by the arrival of the 30-06, etc. etc.

I'm sure this has happened on Alaskan Hunting Forums somewhere long before today and of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. Going the other direction, the stories float around about Eskimos taking Polar Bears with a .223. Since 99% of the respondants will never go hunt Alaskan Brown Bears, and even if they do they will be governed by the state and by their guides. I guess it doesn't really matter nor cause any harm.

Personally, I have two 338WinMags (and love them dearly) and I also have a 375HH and a 416 and I REALLY like them too. If I part with $16,000 for a Kodiak island Brown Bear hunt, then the 375 H&H and the 416 Rigby will be the ones that make the trip.

I would take one of the 338's only if I questioned my conditioning versus the hiking to be done in which case I would take my lightweight synthetic Sako in 338WinMag, but I don't think I'm that old yet.

IMHO, 338's are great small bores and 375's & 416's make nice medium bores and it is the hunters choice what to use them on. With critters that can and do bite back I like the idea of erring on the side of plenty. Certainly if one can afford the hunt, then the cost of the rifle and the prep time to "become one" with a good hammer is a minor consideration overall. Of course, as always, this assumes the hunter has the cajones required to handle the rifle --- which if approached properly is no big deal really --- particularly by someone with the gumption to head North and pursue a Brown Bear.

Just my $.02.....

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

While I have heard stories about shooting a brown bear with a 338 and it still being alive the next day, it is still a great bear gun. The 375 is a better choice, but a 338 is still good. Has more to do with shot placement. I hear of guys going to Kodiak Island to hunt deer and taking 7mm's and 30-06's and there are a ton of griz there. Anything over 375 and you might as well be hunting Rhinos. :D

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Hornet Man,

Here's the funny part. Only those who don't live in brown bear country or hunt brown bears, they're the one's that argue about what cartridge is suitable and what ain't. And those that do live in and hunt in brown bear country, well, they carry just about anything . . .

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

There is a trend toward the big magnums. I am sure that the black powder folks were happy to see some more powerful rounds come along. Seems that the old mountain men with thier flintlocks only stood abouit a 50/50 chance of comming out on top when they ran into a cranky Grizzly. Since the age of the modern cartridges, many cartridges have been used with success on Grizzly bears. The 30-40 krag, 45-70 45-90 50-100 30-06 and 270 to name a few. The 338 will sure as hell get the job done for anyone who can shoot at all. All the others mentioned here will continue to get the job done as well. I would consider my 30-06 45-70 or the 416 Rem Mag. I have used the 30-06 and 45-70. Never got a chance to hunt the big bears while I had my 416. It is one hell of a gun though. Kind of wish I still had it. I never shot it the last seveal years that I owned it.

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Ive never been face to face with a brown bear but I have been saving for the trip have about $4000 to go . Ive killed black bears . I know its not the the same but having inexperince with such a large animal that can eat me I dont want to draw down on one and have any second thoughts is it or isnt it . With a 375 H&H I will not have to have that thought in my head just shoot and make the best shot I can . Iam sure you guys that live among the bears know what will work what wont .

Iam not looking for power to over come bad shooting just looking for confidence in a situation Ive never been in before.

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Justhuntitall,

375 H&H's ARE indeed "heartwarming".
not the newest or most glitzy cartridge,
but very heart warming for those that use them,
they DO instill confidence!

EKM

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

bearhunter is right!,

I've hunted and killed brown bears my self, and helped others hunt them too. .338 mag is more than enough gun for big bears!!! I've shot them with less gun than that, and they are just as dead!!!

After 25 years of extensive hunting in Alaska, i never felt under gunned carrying a 7 mag. (with good bullets) let alone with a 338 mag!!! (also with proper bullets) Anyone who swears you need a 375 or bigger rifle, is just plain nuts!!!

BTW, there are no grizz on Kodiak, or along the coast, they are all brown bears and are bigger than grizzly bears!

Drilling Man

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

I like the 375 H&H as well. Were I to buy another Bigger Magnum rifle, It would be the 375 Not bad on recoil, good trajectory and a good range of bullets. Very versitile rifle.

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

You are right, I get in the bad habit of using Griz and Brown interchangeably. DM, you still live in AK?

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Ruger,

I no longer live in Alaska. Things changed too much there over the years for my likeing, so i pulled up stakes, bought the farm i grew up on, and that's where i now live.

I have excelent hunting right here on my own place, and i'm enjoying a bit of retirement. In fact, i have better hunting here walking from my home, than i did in Alaska walking from my house. :>)

Drilling Man

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Thanks DM

You hunted them and you say it is good enough. I take your word Sir. My hunting partner has a 375 H-H and he shot an Elk with it several years ago. He hit in right in the boiler room and it ran off. He found the Elk after tracking it several hundred yards. Does that mean that the 375 is not a Great Elk round ? Not at all.
Hornet Man

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Ever stopped and considered why bowhunting with a little 125 grain broadhead is so popular and no-one says anything about lack of power, but then you turn around and people are raving about using a 7mm STW or a 300 ultra mag for antelope? Even for deer that is too much. Id say go with a 7mm rem mag at most so that you dont ruin any meat. Its all just a matter of where you shoot the animal, not how hard you hit them. You dont have to drop them right where they stand, or rather flip them over and blow a hole the size of your fist in them for the people using ultramags and other huge guns on little deer and antelope. So there is no way a 338 is not enough for brown bears.

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

I would have to agree, thats an awfully big bear if a 338 magnum wont do the trick!

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Well, I hope the .338 is enough for griz! I am going to AK this fall with my buddy on a combo hunt, and he will be carrying the griz tag and his .338. I'll be carrying my .300 Win. with a moose tag. We are going to try to spot a good bear and call it in with a predator call and TRY to get it all on video. So, if the .338 turns out to be inadequate, at least we will have the effidence:) His dad will be with us to video the hunt!

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

It's all about the bullet construction!!!!!!

A 375 H&H may not put a rib shot elk right down because the bullet "is designed for bigger heavier animials"!!! I see guys shooting whitetails with 375's and complaining it's not putting them down quick enough!!! When you look at the deer, the bullet hardly expanded at all!!! Bigger isn't always better when it comes to matching game to the gun!!

Too many focus on the cal. instead of the bullet!!!

Drilling Man

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Some focus on the caliber, the velocity, AND the bullet.

Not to fast, not too slow.
Thin skinned bullets for thin skinned game.
Medium constructed bullets for medium density game, etc. etc.

I like 300 gr. Nosler Partitions in a 375 HH for elk, plenty of expansion, plenty of bone bustin' penetration too. Since getting bumped off of my 338's by my two boys, I have had 3 elk with the 375HH. All three with Partitions. All three just gave it up right on spot they were hit (of course I'm in the minority and just bust'em right thru the shoulder and take out the front axle). I've got enough rifles I could choose to go smaller and weaker in cartridge or go larger and more powerful in cartridge. Seems like I like what I see happen off of the business end of my barrel when I choose bigger and more powerful cartridges. Maybe I'm hallucinating, but I think know the results I like best when I put a shot on something --- the closer it comes to "bang - plop" the better I like it--- that is just me. [Ever present disclaimer: "Don't try this if you can't handle the rifle."]

Of course, this is a Brownie thread that has touched on and off onto "proper" cartridges for ungulates. Regarding Brownies and the "proper cartridge", I'll have to just sit back and listen. I've heard it both ways from those that claim to have hunted Brownies. It seems like each has a bit different viewpoint, some view points being way different. Just an observation, but it seems depending on which "flock" a given forum member belong to, folks go running to the "shepperd" that sings the song they like to hear and one that supports their existing ideas and ESPECIALLY if it supports their current inventory of firearms.

When the quarry can bite back, some will probably choose to err on the heavy side. As always in these forums, to each his own.

Good Luck and Good Hunting,

EKM

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

My uncle, who lived in the bush of Alaska from 1973-2000, only hunted with a .243. He told me in that time he killed probably 20 or more grizzlies with his trusty .243, not to mention all the moose and other animals he got. It's all about bullet placement. Size doesn't matter if you hit where you are supposed to.

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Excellent, I think I'll keep the .223 then, that will let me practice ad nauseum so's I can be one of those master marksmen and that will take care of everything. The wife and I are already planning all the fun we can have with the money from liquidating the rest of the unnecessary stuff. I'm saying it ought to go towards a Brownie hunt. I wonder what the State of Alaska and my guide are going to say about my new approach?

Much relieved,
EKM

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

So based on your uncles experience why is your handle 338ultramag , shouldn't it be 243mag or something along those lines ?:D

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Hey 338 ultramag,

How many of those grizz were legal?????????????? All of the early years he was up there only one bear every four years was legal!! What was he doing with more than dead 20 bears anyway???? Selling bear parts????????????

BTW, "IF" you had said he shot more than 20 wolves, by now you would be tarred and feathered on here!!!! hee he heeee


Drilling Man

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Not really. In many parts of the state you can shoot a grizzly every year.

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

NOW you can, but not back when he was talking about!

Drilling Man

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

BTW, "IF" you had said he shot more than 20 wolves, by now you would be tarred and feathered on here!!!! hee he heeee





Now thats funny

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

I couldn't imagine hunting a brown bear with anything smaller than a .300 Win Mag. It sounds cool to say you could kill one with a .22, but wait until the first time you see one up close and personal, you change your mind real quick. Brown bears are HUGE. You cannot even imagine what it is like to bump one up close until you have done it.

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Alaska,

Welcome to the Boards!
We're closer in opinion than perhaps you may realize. Nice Handle!
Where y'all from?

EKM

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

ElkKamp,


I was a Colorado native from down near Trinidad and Raton New Mexico. I now reside in Anchorage. Thanks for the welcome!

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Oh man, I am originally from CO to and I now reside in Anchorage. I am from Littleton. Isn't Trinidad where they do all those sex changes? [:'(]

Welcome to the boards.

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Yeah,

Dr. Biber was a Korean War surgeon, who came to Trinidad because of the depressed area financially. Anyway, one day some guy/lady/whatever asked him if he could do the surgery - he said sure, I can give it a try, and the rest is history!! He's actually a pretty neat guy, real down to earth and country, likes to cowboy and ranch. You would never know the man was a mulitmillionaire and the top surgeon for this stuff in the world.

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

If one hunts with a single shot, should one move up a bit in caliber? I know shot placement and bullet construction is all important, but given the lack of a quick second shot does it not make sense for the single shot hunter to use a 7 mm or 300 mag on antelope and a 375 HH on a large bear (assuming in both cases the hunter can shoot accurately)?

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

My only question is why risk your life, or the life of you guide by being undergunned. I agree I wouldn't use anything smaller than a .300 mag. I admit I want to bowhunt the big browns on Kodiack Island. And I will use guide who will be prepared for this and carry a big stick, so to speak. But you can bet I will not use a bow that is set up for whitetails, it will be set up with high KE, and be able to penetrate all the way through the big bear.

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Well jgttechjunkie, IMO, a single shot on any game that is not dangerous would be just fine, with the above "shoot accurately" statement, but when you're talking about a critter that can be dangerous to life, than it would make more sense to make the first shot count, and the second shot, and the third shot, etc. until there is absolutely no doubt that it is dead! '
I'd be willing to bet that most deer, elk, antelope all only require one shot to kill them, as with a bear, but the deer, elk, and antelope aren't dangerous after they are hit with the first bullet! Better save than sorry;)

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

hey a.m., ruger...i'm in trinidad now, dr. bibers is being forced to retire, i hear, due to his ins. carrier no longer going to cover him...he had a 400 pt. bull crossing his ranch to pinon canon last year, the dow guy at the base said...
-best

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

OK, Before anybody jumps down my throat, here, I am a neophite on bears. I would like to hunt them someday. I have never shot a .338, or a .375. I HAVE shot a .458 and NEVER want to do that again. What I really have is a question. Is the issue on the larger cals about recoil, impact, or what?

I asked that to lead into another cal. As far as I can tell, it is new. I'm talking about the .50 Beowolf. I read an article in a swat magazine or some such the other day. Basically, for those who don't yet know about it, it is simply a new upper receiver for an AR-15. It used the same existing clips and single stacks the cartridges. The chamber pressures are lower than the .223, the bolt speed is about the same, and the recoil is about like a 20 ga. It is accurate to 200 yards and devastating on impacy well beyond that. The ballistics are somewhere around those of a 30-30 for Velocity and drop, but the energy retention is phenomenal! The sight options are wide open. Total weight loaded is 8.8 lbs. and it IS being marketed for both police/military and recreational hunting.

If you're worried about firepower, wouldn't this fit the bill?

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

Anything around a .300 should work for a griz/brownie, from what I have heard/read.

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

I am nt saying that my 338 RUM would not do the job. But I would feel a whole lot better useing my 375 RUM in BIG BEAR Country. I have killed one Brownie with it and for me personally I wanted something bigger like a 50 cal.

The S.O.B started stalkig me and muy guide. Makeing big circles around us. I put three shots into him and the bastard finally dropped about seven steps infront of us!!

That was ONE PISSED OFF BEAR.

I dont think I will ever be able to afford it again. But dont really want to if you know what I mean.

So yes I would rather be OVER GUNNED than under gunned.

hunter338

RE: 338 Mag not enough for Brown Bears
 

idahoeelk,


Its pretty standard up here to have another person back you up on bear and buffalo. They are pretty practical, and they encourage your buddy to follow-up shoot after you do. I think its pretty common with bow hunters too.


A good muzzlebreak and a pachmeyer recoil pad can tame even the most wicked kicking rifles. I may be hunting brownies down near Cold Bay next spring, and if I do, I am pretty sure I will be purchasing a .375 H&H Magnum.

BARRETT 50 BMG FOR BROWN BEARS...LOL...
 

common on people.... you will hunt bears with a bow but not with anything smaller then a 300 mag....(MY THEORY) spend more time on the shooting range with a 30.06 or 270 getting (deadly accurate) .. i dont need a .338 mag to replace my 30.06 because i know that i am (deadly accurate) with my 100 year old m1903 !! instead of being the first
kid on the block with a (MAGNUM) you need to concentrate on shot placement on vitals.
P>S> REMEMBER NOT TO FLINCH WHEN YOU SHOOT YOUR MAGNUM !!

RE: BARRETT 50 BMG FOR BROWN BEARS...LOL...
 

I sure am glad someone brought me up to speed and let me know I must be having such a terrible time with recoil and flinching with my 338WinMag (light weight) and 375 H&H Mag (sweet). I wasn't aware I had a such problem until I read this thread, but I guess that is the gospel so it must be true.

Good thing my 416 Rigby (frisky on recoil, wicked on delivery) is not a magnum, otherwise I would be in terrible shape! On the other hand, I can't remember the last time I thought about recoil, or felt recoil, or even heard the "traditional" muzzleblast when taking a big game animal.

Perhaps someone should open up an import company to bring bottled African water and African herbal vitamins to America in an attempt to fortify its seemingly high population of wimpy, recoil shy hunters with the kind of strength and fortitude that African hunting community has apparently maintained for generations --- and many of those guys aren't all that big in stature either.

I do like the .30-06 (and .308 in particular), especially for punching paper and casual plinking when "exercising" the more docile end of rack" while at the range or while doing a camping/shooting weekend in the National Grasslands. During the years I used them (and the .270) on wild game they proved to be generally sufficient, but just not as outstandingly authoritive as what I have discovered, experienced, enjoyed from the upper end of the spectrum.

Certainly if one lacks the cajones (figuratively speaking only) for the larger cartridges then one is much better served by something more modest that will allow that particular individual to shoot within his/her comfort range thus allowing them to obtain reasonable accuracy. Different thresholds for different people --- seldom does one size of anything fit all people to their complete satisfaction.

It is hard to argue with good shooting, on the other hand....
Deliver accuracy AND overwhelming power and there is no room left for discussion.
Contrary to popular opinion, it is doable (at least for some).

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM