einstein would slap you with your 12 GUAGE..LMFAO

there is no comparison on the knock down power between a 300 wetherby mag and a
12gauge slug or buck shot....

No doubt!!!!!!! Heck you wouldn't even need a gun at that point. All you have to do is run faster than the other guy and you're safe.

I beg to differ. There is a lot more to so called "knock down power" than just the KE levels and velocity.

Winchester loads a 385 grain, 45 caliber nosler partition slug at 2000 fps. This beats even the best 45-70 loads and I would much rather have a big 45-70 over the 300 any day of the week. I would take this over just about any rifle under the 375 H&H for nock you on your butt power. The 300 will probably penetrate all the way to the guts and more but Winchesters slug will simply knock the hell out of the bear.

This load generates 3420 foot pounds and the bullet starts out as a 45 caliber bullet.

hey big bulls...so you are saying that a 385 GRAIN 45 caliber HOLLOW POINT
snail trailing a 2000 f.p.s. is better then a 200 grain .30 caliber nosler partition traveling at 3060 with 4158 ft/lbs of energy??? CRACK KILLS(PUT THE PIPE DOWN)

AS FOR A 45-70....I AM laughing my A$$ off... the best round for a 45-70 is a
p.m.c. 350 grain soft point... 2025 f.p.s. with 3167 ft/lbs... like i said a .300 weatherby would be a better choice......
all info from (2004 guns and ammo annual with ballistics chart)

Like I said, there is a lot more to the so called "knock down power" than your Guns and Ammo ballistics chart and KE levels.

A bullets diameter and its meplate diameter have a tremendous effect on "knock down power".

I know that I am probably talking to a brick wall about this so you can go on thinking that a 30 caliber bullet has more stopping power than a big heavy 45 caliber bullet.

350 grain soft point from PMC huh? Did you get that from Guns and Ammo too?

Here is an interesting link on "knock down" power called the Taylor index: http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July02.htm If my figures for the 12 gauge magnum 1 oz solid slug (454gr) are accurate, you get a value of about 50 on the Taylor index at 100 yards. I measured the inside bore diameter of my 12 gauge and got about 0.7 inches to use in the calculations. This load should outpenetrate just about any rifle out there including the 300.

You have to realize that the Taylor index should only be used to compare big, slow moving bullets, not fast, small bullets. Foot/lbs should be used for modern rifles such as the 300.

Bottom line, if I was hunting Alaskan critters, I would take the 300 and not worry. If I were fishing or just sightseeing, I would take the 12 with solids and not worry. I am not sure about buckshot. Each pellet would have much less ability to penetrate than the 1 oz slug.

i respect your opinon as a fellow hunter and i assure you that you arent talking to a (BRICK WALL)..my family would tell you that i am "obsessed" with ballistic charts..LMFAO
I am however confident enough (to express my opinion) on this matter..i have hunted (grizzly country) in north central idaho in (the frank church wilderness area) with a
.300 mag . i do currently own a 12guage with a rifled barrel and the trauma is no where near that of a 3oo weatherby mag... i assure you a 12 guage is better then nothing !!!!!
but certainly not better then a 300 weatherby mag. you think that a .45 grain HOLLOW POINT (partition golds are hollow points) would penetrate bear fat better than a 180 grain
barnes X or winchester fail safe (both are also hollow points)?? you need to take a math
class !!!!! you need SPEED to penetrate bear fat tissue.. and that 45 caliber (snail) lacks it.
( to make you feel better i would prefer a smith and wesson .500 mag hand gun with
partition gold (hollow points) then a 12 guage.........BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME..LMFAO

I totally agree with this statement. The 300 will cause much more TRAUMA than a 12 gauge and if you pin me down, I would probably choose the 300 hands down. However I still say that the 12 gauge may OUTPENETRATE the 300. Penetration and trauma/terminal damage aren't necessarily the same thing. If the 300 had a FMJ bullet, then it would probably outpenetrate. Otherwise, I suspect that the 12 gauge may penetrate further. As least the Taylor index thinks it would. Whether he is right or not, I don't know. Does that translate into putting the bear down sooner??? I also don't know.

To tweek the question further. If I had only one shot of any gun, I would choose the 300, no question. However, the fact that you should be able to get off more shots with the 12 gauge pump makes it a viable option.


This is all theoritical to me as the only bear I have ever shot was a Montana black with a 270. If a bear was charging me at close range what I would really want is a 50 caliber machine gun!

I wouldn't classify the Frank as "grizzly country". I am a wildlife biologist on the north side of the Frank and we haven't had anything but a couple of "sightings" by drunk outfitters in alot of years. There may be a few but no one knows, but we can say with some certainty that if they are there, the total is less than ten individuals. So I would try to think of a better place to use of as your credentials.

Well, I would still rather have a 12 gague loaded up with a 385 grain slug or better IMO would be Winchesters full 1 ounce (437 grains) slug coming out the muzzle at 1760 fps. This scenario is a close range attack and a big arse slug slapping a bear in the chest will not only penetrate to the vitals but offer up one hell of a whollop at the same time. A heck of a lot bigger whollop than any .308 bullet could think about doing.

I am sure the 308 bullet will penetrate farther but that is not my concern in this scenario. My concern is puting the biggest chunk of lead possible in the bears chest and stopping the bear ASAP. The farther a given bullet penetrates the longer it takes that bullet to expend all of its energy and the less "punch" that bullet will have, more like a shove.

Do not discount big slow (snales) chunks of lead as very effective ammo. It's kind of like being hit with a baseball at 90 mph or a bowling ball ar 20 mph. Sure the baseball is gonna hurt really bad and may even break something but that bowling ball is gonna knock the hell out of you and keep you down for a long time.

I would still rather have a slow running guide. At least slower than me.

Iam with wolf killer . Spray the slow guy run like hell.