Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

I take care of trails for three districts on the National Forest and I'm a little bothered by what I'm seeing. My planned budget is only allowing me to hire four trail crew hands this upcoming season. I have approximately six hundred miles of trail to maintain. This past year about twelve miles of trail were burned over up in our Wilderness area. For the most part the trails are dangerous and hard to use due to erosion and the excess trees falling down. I have talked with several outfitters and they are having a hard time with unmaintained trails. I'm hearing this from other Forest, especially where we've had big fires. Now I'm told they are going to cut the budget even more. As an avid hunter and person in charge of trails this is frustrating as we can't open up these trails with what we have. You get the idea what I'm trying to say. Is anyone else having problems getting into their favorite spots? A related issue I would like to bring up is chainaws vs. crosscuts in Wilderness areas? Does everyone understand why we don't use chainsaws in Wilderness?

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

I understand fully why you won't use a chainsaw. At least I think I do, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't it that you don't want to disrupt the enviroment with the noise and the commotion?

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

The Wilderness Act makes it illegal to use motorized equipment in designated Wilderness areas. The idea is so people have a place to go and have sollitude and can get away from modern noises. There are some exceptions but I don't want to get into a educational mode. I will say though that it was a hunter with extended hunting pack trips in mind who is responsible for starting the Wilderness system we have in place. That would be Aldo Leopold who got the Forest Service to set aside the Gila Wilderness we have here in New Mexico. It's now one of my favorite elk hunting spots.

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

Thanks for the info!

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

rambopacker,

Can you help me a little more? I don't know what state you work in but when I was in Colorado this past year I rode up into Rhoutt Nat'l Forest to see the camp grounds. While there I saw a lot of fallen trees that had been cut up, probably for fire wood. I was told, by a nat'l forest worker, that you could cut up any fallen tree, but the type of saw never came up. Do you know if you can use a chain saw to cut up trees along the road way to the camp grounds.

Thanks,
dog1

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

Parks and environmental policies are really getting out of hand and beyond the realm of common sense. Many of these policies are promoted by people who may never visit a park or reserve, whatever you call them. Here in Ontario, we have wilderness parks where hunting is prohibited. Most of these designations were pushed by parks users such as canoeists and hikers from Southern Ontario who generally use the parks and their waterways in June, July and August. In 30 yrs as a Conservation Officer, I've yet to meet a canoeist or hiker in Sept or Oct when our hunting seasons run, and yet No Hunting is allowed. There would never be any conflict between the two users on these remote land bases. Our crown land is designed in such a way that all citizens of the province own them, yet special interest groups are calling the shots--as usual!

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

I have some real problems with the wilderness area concept as it has been instituted and administered by the USFS. Apparently common sense has no place in a bureaucracy and even though good hard working people like yourself go to great pains to make things work you are limited by your own rules.
12 miles of trails in a wilderness area that are virtually unusable and you are getting complaints from outfitters? Let those that benefit the most, provide some funds and labor to fix them. Against the rules? Change the rules! Most of them are not laws passed by the congress, but policy set by the chair polishers at a higher level that are more interested in their carrers than in doing the right thing. That goes to the chainsaw question, it is understandable to keep chainsaws out of wilderness as a general rule, but to apply it to those that are trying to maintain the area is ridiculous. Fire fighters have died due to these policies, millions of dollars worth of timber are wasted annually due to these policies and many people are denied access to the land and forests that are, in truth, owned by the people due to these policies. Time for some drastic changes in those policies and administrators I think.

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

Let's see, chainsaws in the wilderness. Just what I want to hear when I pack in to get away from the mess we call civilization. And boy could we improve the access with those! Instead of every other rock having toilet paper under it, it would be every rock! We could always boil our water twice as long. And who cares about packing wood a half mile to the campsite, or packing in feed cause all the grass is chewed down by July 30th. I say keep the pink asses outta the wilderness by keeping it a tough place (i.e. real wilderness). And to hell with the outfitters! If they wanna use the dam trails on public land, they can help clear 'em. No need to throw more of my tax dollars away propping up private businesses. Hell, we gotta save up for them Mars missions. I'm all in favor of goin' into debt to go to Mars. As long as I can git my home paid for and reload enough ammo to keep me in meat when I'm old (cause social security won't be around), and as long as I can buy my prescriptions in Canader and have a couple doctors as friends, I'm all for funneling our nation's prosperity into the pockets of the military industrial complex. While we're at it, we need to start implantin' them chips in people and horse's skulls so when they pass by certain trees they could be counted accurately, with immediate notification sent to the Homeland Security department, the FBI, the INS, and the NCAA when a former shoplifter, traffic violator, or first round draft pick tried to pack in. Jus' as long as there ain't any noisy chainsaws in the backcountry so I can still fish and hunt without bein' reminded of the sick values we've adopted in this country.

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

Wow, sensitive issue as always. I'll keep it simple. For dog1, I don't know the particular rules on the Forest up in Colorado but in general chainsaws are allowed to be used for legal woodcutting outside the Wilderness. It didn't sound like you were in a Wilderness. For sawbill, I feel for you. We have a Wilderness System that includes land by four agencies, Park Service, Forest Service, BLM and the Fish and Wildlife Service. There are exceptions but hunting is allowed in all but the National Park Service and that is for their non-Wilderness areas too.

Personally I appreciate outfitters who use Wilderness appropriately and are Light on the Land. I know outfitters who educate the public about our National Forest and Leave No Trace Principles. I also know outfitters who help clear the trails, pick up others garbage and help with other trail work. You bet there are many who don't and those who care of nothing but making a buck but most do what they do because they love the Forest. Those clients who they take into the Forest are tax payers too and have the right to hunt in our National Forest/Wilderness areas. A percentage of what an outfitter makes is payed to the Forest for their use on Public Land. Most outfitters I've known don't make a lot of money, their office is pay enough. When people pick outfitters I hope they ask them about such things and pick accordingly. Being from a military family and having been in the military myself I understand the need to fund them first in todays world. It still bothers me to see our Forest and Parks underfunded. Last, I like hunting out in the places without the noises(chainsaws) and we can cut em with the cross-cuts almost as fast.

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

BJ, even when you drop the hillbilly/hayseed act I still have a difficult time trying to figure out what you're trying to say. I don't know if today you're one of those tree hugging hypocrites from the city or Griz Adams but I do know this. If that land truly does belong to everyone, then everyone should have the opportunity to use it and have a say in how its managed. You will also run the gamut of types of people who want to use it, from the tree hugger to the recreational user to the commercial user. So, if these trails must be maintained, then get the crews in and then get them out as quick as possible. If that means using a chainsaw to reach this goal, then by all means, go at it. I've cleaned up after too many blowdowns in my time to realize how impractical it is to use buck saws or axes. Better to return the site to its expected condition in a few days than have a crew tied up for a month in the heat of the summer or in the middle of hunting season. Remember, RBPacker was talking about repairing and cleaning 12 miles of trail, not clear cutting a super highway. Don't forget, it was these 'pink asses' as you put it, who probably were instumental in bringing in the noice polution restrictions. These people are the proverbial camel. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. Next thing they'll want is archery only as the sound of a rifle shot will be disturbing to them. Then they'll want yada yada...... you get where I'm going with this. Happy trails, gentlemen......:D

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

When I first read this a couple days ago, the first thing that came to mind was great, the more trails that are inaccessible the better. Few are the folks that'll try enter the woods without a highway to go in. Trails and roads are people magnets. Now I enjoy elk hunting, but the fewer the hunters the better. When I come across nonmaintained trails that cuts way down on hunter access, as few are the ones to cut trail.
Now I realize that some folks have stock, therefore bank on cleared trails, but as soon as they're open, every Tom, Dick and Harry are right behind you.
So let's not get to gun ho about opening them up.:) I know it sounds selfish, but they're my true feelings on the matter. If you're willing to take matters into your own hands and clear one out for personal use, more power to you, but I may be right behind you, killing your elk. :D elknut1

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

One of my ideas is that, now this is off the subject but it relates, they should reintroduce grizzlies where ever they used to be. If there are more bruins in the woods then there are less people. Inaccesible trails are great. more hunting opportunities as well as for the serious hiker you have some killer trails.

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

Well said, I totally agree! I have even seen where hunters are sneaking there atv's in on trails that are supposed to be closed. This year there was a guy taking matters in his own hands, cutting fallen trees on a blaze trail himself so it would be clear for the rifle season on elk he told us.
The less traffic, usually the better the hunting. ;)

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

Hey Sawbill I have to disagree a little with you but you have some great points. After careful cosideration I've come to the conclusion that we need to keep the chainsaws out of the Wilderness. As someone who wants to take care of the trails I want to open them up too but we have to draw the line somewhere and I don't want to go down the slippery slope. I rather cut the trails out by cross-cut, which actually is a great tool, than open the doors for more exceptions. What could be next, quads to carry tools? you get my point.
Yes our forest are getting more crowded but I hear the complaint that only the elite can use the Wilderness. I don't want to turn the rest of the public against the idea of Wilderness by making access more difficult. I still know of many places where there is plenty of elk and yeh you might have to work harder to get em.
People will still go into the woods and if they have to go around a bunch of trees then they will cause resource damage. I was hiking on an illegal trail today and people cutting their own trails are even worse.

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

Ok correct me if I am wrong. It is called a wildernes area for a reason right.

The definition of WILDERNESS:

1: An unsettled, uncultivated region left in its natural condition.
2: A bewildering or threatening vastness

Reading the definition of wilderness I would have to say that if someone wants access to it then let them get off of their panzy arses and access it themselves. Yes it belongs to all of us but we all have to access it the same way. Just because some may be more "woods wise" than others is that our problem? Do we really need people roads traveling all through the woods allowing everyone else to easily get to where others had to work hard to get to what was once secluded wilderness. It is there for everyone to use if they have the desire. Some of us have more desire than others do.

Four of five horses packing in an elk camp can make an "illegal" trail in just a couple of trips up and down the mountain. We now have a trail to our hunting camp simply because horses quickly make a trail and the elk help keep it a trail when we are not up there hunting. It actually started out as multiple elk trails that got connected by horses.

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

rambopacker, in your original post you stated you would have budget for "Only 4 trail crew hands" in the upcoming season with which you are expected to maintain 600 miles of trails. Now I've run a chainsaw a time or two and I've worked a crosscut a time or two and there is a significant difference in ones productivity between them. I would expect any manager to make the best use of the resources available and the advantage of a chainsaw over a crosscut
should be obvious.
You also stated that there is a 12 mile section of trail that was severly impacted by a fire and also had erosion damage and was dangerous. Was the erosion there before the fire or did it develop afterwards? In other words had it been neglected prior to the fire due to previous budget cuts or will it now be closed due to budget cuts?
I guess I just don't understand the point of the post in the first place, folks offer suggestions and comments, and then you defend the agency responsible for the neglect. Either you want us to do something to help improve your ability to do your job or you don't. Which is it?

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

Hey, got me back on my heals coastie, take it easy. I'll start by saying that this was just for light discussion and I originally put up the post to see how people felt about trail conditions on the Forest. I'm also not defending my agency but stating my personal beliefs. I have mixed feelings about Wilderness management including how we take care of the trails. I won't say where the problem begins as far as why I as a lower level manager trying to take care things on the ground doesn't see enough funds to do what "I" believe should. We can debate this stuff till we're blue in the face but as long as I'm paid by the taxpayers to maintain the trails that's what I'll do. I've run chainsaws as I am a firefighter and I've built trails for the better part of 10 years, both Wilderness and non-Wilderness. Just so you know, I am not against fire fighters using chainsaws in the Wilderness for safety concerns with exceptions. If you payed close attention I've never said cross-cuts can out cut chainsaws but I do know that a well honed cross-cut sawyer can almost keep up with a chainsaw. It is a trade off between using whatever tools and keeping a Wilderness a Wilderness. I know coastie you want to debate what a Wilderness is probably. I love my Wilderness and I do what I think is right.

I had to come back and add something. Don't get me wrong about this. I believe we need to keep the trails open at the same time that doesn't mean we can allow unlimited access. I work in a Wilderness where I can go out on the trails and not see anybody in a week. I also don't want to see a trail into every nick and cranny. Each Wilderness is different and has it's own problems. I've worked in places that I thought had too many trails and was angry that I was told to build more. I've also worked in many where only a small percentage of the Wilderness was accessable by trail and you had to bushwack into areas if you wanted to hunt them. There is a balance and we can't make blank statements about this cause one size does not fit all. If there is an area that is being impacted by too many visitors than it's up to us managers to use the appropriate techniques to solve the problems. Hope you feel better. Now I have to go feed the horses and I think I'll ride up one of our trails today.

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

Shoot, I fergot the ATFB. Tree hugger? What the hell you talkin' 'bout? Gotta plop a label down on everbody, cause thet's the american way I reckin'. You can't be an individual, you gotta have a cause, everthin' you say has to have a political purpose, an' you gotta be with a crowd. Well, I'm hear to say thet I don't like crowds. I don't like all this brotherhood crap y'all ram down everbody's throats, an' I don't believe for a minute that hunting is better today than it was before it got over commercialized, over technologied, and over populated with pink behinds looking to recapture their manhoods by runnin' 'round the hills with over-sized, under-practiced rifles. I don't like the hippie backpackers what burn up the wood I cut and stashed for next year's hunting camp. Or their smelly wimmins what got hair stickin' outta places where it ain't 'sposed to be. I don't like the new age horse whisperers neither what show up with their flighty arab mounts and end up gettin' throwed and walkin' back or spookin' my mule with their stupidity. I don't like the llamas or the pack dogs. I don't like the ATVs, the old people that feel safe enuff in the hills to take daily walks where there outta be wild animals. There ain't no wilderness. Don't kid yerselfs. I for one, don't like it. Keepin' the trails from becoming four lane highways is jus' one way to keep the crowds down. Outside of forced sterilization I reckin' its as good as any.

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

I don't know too many real muleskinners BJ that hang out on the computer. I know some of them types(hippies with hair sticking out of all the wrong places) that would last probably longer than you out in the woods. Sorry couldn't help myself. Oh yeh, if you ever been out in griz country with a griz charging you you might feel like your having a Wilderness feeling.

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

rambopacker, I'm not trying to be controversial or combative here. I would like to support you and your fellow foresters, rangers etc. as much as I can. The wilderness concept is fine except it really screws the folks that have a bit of a problem getting around in a true wilderness. If you're twenty something, in perfect health and have the time, you can do a "Wilderness Experience" with little trouble. If you happen to be one of the thousands of people with some injury or handicap (or a full time job with a family to support) that prevents you from doing it the "Right Way" that's just tough. Further more, I don't expect you to have all of the answers nor yet know all of the questions, but, as I stated before, your post started off as if you were looking for some backup or support, then you do a 180 and are defending the beaurocracy that has put you in a bind. As for the chainsaws vs crosscuts, hey whatever flips your bic. I do know a man can run a chainsaw for 8 or 10 hours and be a little more fresh than if he had been running a crosscut, and with our tax money (yours and mine) paying the freight, I'd as soon get more done for the time and effort expended. Any manager, whether a forest manager or a bank manager, that doesn't do that should be fired.

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

Ramboman

BJ's a big boy and take care of himself. But I for one cannot let such a low and cowardly remark slide by. Who the heck do you think you are to insinuate that those of us who enjoy hunting sites as this are a bunch of lowly wannabe hunters, otherwise why would we belong to such sites. I'm not going to stoop to your level and combat you with words. You might as well have mentioned all our names by a comment like that.

I feel because there's controversy in the way YOU look at this matter that all are wrong in their thinking if it opposes yours. Well, GROW UP! BJ you can take it from here!!!!! elknut1

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

Lowly Wanabe hunters? Where did that come from? Was it the muleskinner or long hair thing. I'm an avid hunter who is using this site too(apparently more than I should be) and I packed 4 mules into the backcountry this summer. Lighten up a bit as it was just humor. The other day I ran a bunch of those Hippie types(alternative life style people in case my boss is reading) off the Forest. They live out on the Forest and apparently were out in this particular spot for 2 months before I found them. That's where that came from and so they probably could out last me too. And the muleskinner remark comes from knowing some outfitters and packers who I just couldn't picture sitting at the computer. I guess I didn't appreciate the hippie and horse whisperer comments, horse whisperers are better than folks who use two-by-fours. So I stick by my remarks humurous or not and I appreciate others oppinion more than you know. Elknut, your not a smokejumper are you? I've known some out of McCall Idaho. Good guys to be stuck on a fire with. Nice country too, that's where I got my cross-cut saw training.

I'll fall back on the motto I've developed since becoming a Federal employee"If everybody is equally pissed at me I must be doing a good job".

Hey Coastie, thanks, and as far as cross-cuts vs. chainsaws, I use chainsaws when I'm outside of the Wilderness because I try to be as efficient as possible with your tax dollars. Chainsaws are not allowed in the Wilderness so I can't there. Come out and volunteer for me sometime and you'll find most of my crews can push a misery whip all day and clear quite a few trees and they love it. I just don't think adding chainsaws to the Wilderness is worth a few extra miles at the end of the year. A lot of people who pay taxes and use the Wilderness want to keep it that way. Your right I don't have all the answers and guess that's why I keep asking questions. I know it's contradictive all of this. Whether it's chainsaw crews outside the Wilderness or cross-cut saws in, we don't have enough funds to do a proper job and I Don't want to loose the Wilderness experience because of the almighty dollar. Oh well!

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

Sounds like 'wilderness' is a relative term. I have guys from the Detroit area who hunt with me and consider where I take them to be wilderness. As far as I'm concerned its not even close to getting out in the back 40. Don't forget that mosts trails and portage routes existed long before your 'wilderness' parks were ever designated so I don't see it as opening new country, but maintaining the access that was already there for a couple of centuries. How you do this and what is acceptable is what this post was originally about--I think! I firmly believe that its fair to treat everyone equally as their taxes are going to support your program. This means the old fart who can barely hobble around as well as the young buck who wants the real bushwhacking experience. That old character has every right to enjoy a wilderness experience, maybe for the last time, that he once knew when he was a younger man. His taxes say that he has that right. And just maybe we owe it to that man to be able to do it in relative safety. If you prefer to do your work with a bucksaw thats OK. I still think its okay to use a chainaxe because even in Northern Ontario I don't believe there really exists 'Wilderness' anymore.
And BJ, I was the clod who made less than polite comments about your writing style. Please drop the Mountain Man persona and talk to us so we can more easily understand what you're saying. It would give your comments so much more credibility. You ain't really the hayseed you're trying to make out to be. :)

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

Hey Sawbill, I'd like to hunt your country sometime, Wilderness or not. I leaned the other way on the chainsaw vs. crosscut issue and you know what? I guess I was persuaded by passionate Wilderness lovers. Again, I had to draw the line somewhere in order to protect the Wilderness, true or not it's all we got. There are plenty of Wilderness Managers who are dealing with this dilema and are leaning the other way. I suppose if your out in the Wilderness and trying to hunt elk and someone starts a chainsaw nearby that wouldn't bother some but I'll stick with the folks who prefer otherwise. Out of 3 districts 2/3rds are not Wilderness trails and we cleared just as many miles in the Wilderness with x-cut saws as out. People who come to work in the Wilderness are usually proud of keeping a traditional tool going and I'm always turning folks away.

I know smokejumpers who don't mind jumping out of a plane with a x-cut too. We send a lot of them to the smokejumpers in the off season to sharpen as they are experts. Someone said earlier that there have been fatalities dut to firefighters having to use x-cuts but I know of none. When your under a tree with a chainsaw you can't hear the sounds of a cracking tree.

Yeh Sawbill, you picked up on poor PJ who I was just poking at a little cause he seemed to like poking at everyone else. Take it easy.

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

rambopacker, I don't know if the fatalities were due to the crosscut over chainsaw thing or not, but the wilderness policies of the USFS were questioned quite a bit during the fire season a couple of years ago in Montana where those folks got killed. As for the amount of work that can be done with a crosscut, that is pretty undeniable, the great white pine forests of Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota can attest to that. As far as the safety issue though, most of the old time lumber jacks I knew as a kid, those that had taken part in that mighty endeavor, were known as "Lefty" "One Arm Bill" or "Stubby" so I guess if you screw up with an axe or a crosscut, the result can be just as devastating.
If I were 30 years younger, I might take you up on the offer of joining one of your crews but that is not to be.

RE: Ever have problems getting into your hunting area?
 

I love my job. It wouldn't be the same without the controversies. We definately had a bad couple of seasons with the casualties. Safety First. Maybe we'll cross paths out on one of those trails sometime.