asked for advice then tells you your wrong?
06-22-2020, 08:57 AM
#1
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: texas
Posts: 1,201
asked for advice then tells you your wrong?
have you ever given your opinion and know you're most likely correct,
and been told by someone with ZERO experience your completely wrong?
now I will instantly admit going into this discussion that my personal experience in this area is rather limited.
that being stated, I do feel I have a firm basis for my suggestions.
I was asked for advice,concerning a rifles use on an up coming black bear hunt
from a guy thats hunted elk for decades with a 308 win and even done it successfully,
who when I assured him his 308 win rifles going to be fine!
as always shot placements the critical factor!
... he tells me I'm wrong?
my late uncle lived in Maine and used to hunt there rather extensively when I was a kid.
he used a 35 rem caliber marlin to hunt local Maine black bear, very successfully for decades.
one of the guys Ive hunted with for decades has booked a bear hunt in Ontario for next year,
hes worried because his only centerfire rifle is a savage bolt action in caliber 308 win,
I assured him its going to be an excellent choice.(if he gets decent 165-180 grain ammo)
I offered to loan him a BLR in caliber 358 win, and a couple boxes of 250 grain handloads ,
but hes rather hesitant as he thinks he needs something with more clout .. than either of those options
I have no idea why he thinks a bear that probably weights under 250-300 lbs requires more power than the listed options
anyone with experience in this area please post your thoughts, as to the choice in rifle caliber/power required
and been told by someone with ZERO experience your completely wrong?
now I will instantly admit going into this discussion that my personal experience in this area is rather limited.
that being stated, I do feel I have a firm basis for my suggestions.
I was asked for advice,concerning a rifles use on an up coming black bear hunt
from a guy thats hunted elk for decades with a 308 win and even done it successfully,
who when I assured him his 308 win rifles going to be fine!
as always shot placements the critical factor!
... he tells me I'm wrong?
my late uncle lived in Maine and used to hunt there rather extensively when I was a kid.
he used a 35 rem caliber marlin to hunt local Maine black bear, very successfully for decades.
one of the guys Ive hunted with for decades has booked a bear hunt in Ontario for next year,
hes worried because his only centerfire rifle is a savage bolt action in caliber 308 win,
I assured him its going to be an excellent choice.(if he gets decent 165-180 grain ammo)
I offered to loan him a BLR in caliber 358 win, and a couple boxes of 250 grain handloads ,
but hes rather hesitant as he thinks he needs something with more clout .. than either of those options
I have no idea why he thinks a bear that probably weights under 250-300 lbs requires more power than the listed options
anyone with experience in this area please post your thoughts, as to the choice in rifle caliber/power required
Last edited by hardcastonly; 06-22-2020 at 10:46 AM.
06-22-2020, 09:35 AM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,743
my experience in this area is this
don't waste your time trying to change someone's mind that is made up already, its wasted words on deaf ears!
that being said
I live in a state with bears and had a gun shop for yrs and dealt with countless folks on this subject, on what should be used on bears,
and the basic thing I gather from it all,
is far too many people think bears are some big vicious animal that is out to eat you or other wise harm you, and that means they better have the largest caliber firearm they can handle to shoot at them with!
and many folks actually get scared and fear bears when close to them, so there shooting if way off, NOT helping, but they some how think magically the bigger more powerful caliber will help kill better
and to SOME degree there 100% right!
taking poor shots out of fear, SOME TIMES< not always, a bigger caliber has more shock value, and or better penetration!
is a huge caliber needed for black bears, NO not at all
as stated a killing shot needs to just hit and damage vitals
BUT again, most and I mean thins as nicely as I can, from decades of shooting, training and being about shooters
MOST shooters are NOT half as good as they THINK they are!
most do NOT practice near enough to be good with there rifles , countless only shoot just before a hunt to check zero and that';s IT< if even that!!
its a very small percentage of hunters IMO< that really get involved in shooting, when you look at the BIG picture
SO< based on this info
MAYBE a larger caliber they can handle , does several things
one, it gives them more confidence, which right off the bat, IMO< tends to help most shoot better !
next, it allows again some extra lee way for some maybe poor judgement shots they will take!
and IMO< I would honestly rather a bear hunter have more gun than needed than less!
Most all bear guides I know follow this logic on gun/caliber suggestion when asked(I am personal friends with many bear guides in AK and else where)
but I 100% agree a .308 is more than enough gun for black bears!, as are even many smaller calibers, when using right bullets and shot placement is done right!
if a guy wants a BIG caliber to hunt them, I say, have at it, why try and talk someone out of having what they want??
wasted words, more often than not, folks BUY things they want, due to they WANT THEM!
who are we to say not to!
my 2 cents!
don't waste your time trying to change someone's mind that is made up already, its wasted words on deaf ears!
that being said
I live in a state with bears and had a gun shop for yrs and dealt with countless folks on this subject, on what should be used on bears,
and the basic thing I gather from it all,
is far too many people think bears are some big vicious animal that is out to eat you or other wise harm you, and that means they better have the largest caliber firearm they can handle to shoot at them with!
and many folks actually get scared and fear bears when close to them, so there shooting if way off, NOT helping, but they some how think magically the bigger more powerful caliber will help kill better
and to SOME degree there 100% right!
taking poor shots out of fear, SOME TIMES< not always, a bigger caliber has more shock value, and or better penetration!
is a huge caliber needed for black bears, NO not at all
as stated a killing shot needs to just hit and damage vitals
BUT again, most and I mean thins as nicely as I can, from decades of shooting, training and being about shooters
MOST shooters are NOT half as good as they THINK they are!
most do NOT practice near enough to be good with there rifles , countless only shoot just before a hunt to check zero and that';s IT< if even that!!
its a very small percentage of hunters IMO< that really get involved in shooting, when you look at the BIG picture
SO< based on this info
MAYBE a larger caliber they can handle , does several things
one, it gives them more confidence, which right off the bat, IMO< tends to help most shoot better !
next, it allows again some extra lee way for some maybe poor judgement shots they will take!
and IMO< I would honestly rather a bear hunter have more gun than needed than less!
Most all bear guides I know follow this logic on gun/caliber suggestion when asked(I am personal friends with many bear guides in AK and else where)
but I 100% agree a .308 is more than enough gun for black bears!, as are even many smaller calibers, when using right bullets and shot placement is done right!
if a guy wants a BIG caliber to hunt them, I say, have at it, why try and talk someone out of having what they want??
wasted words, more often than not, folks BUY things they want, due to they WANT THEM!
who are we to say not to!
my 2 cents!
06-23-2020, 04:22 PM
#5
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: texas
Posts: 1,201
theres no real advantage in significant power increases over what a 308 win with proper ammo potentially provides,
other than, it might provide the shooter with a bit more confidence
,but in most cases that Ive seen videotaped ,black bear are shot at well under 100 yards,
and if a 308 win can drop an elk at twice the distance and one that is easily twice as heavy as your average black bear it certainly does not lack lethality in skilled hands
btw I got one guy who asked me , after reading this thread,
what I would have suggested to take on that same black bear hunt if I was doing the hunting?
well to me thats a perfect match to using my BLR in caliber 358 win with those 250 grain speer bullets over a 44 grain charge of IMR 4064 with a 215 federal primer,
and id certainly select a scope with a 30mm tube and large lenses to make making shots in dim light easier.
I really doubt you could significantly improve on that combo,
as it certainly, and consistently works on larger and heavier elk.
It will be interesting to see what he decides to use!
a scope like this would be helpful
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/102227146
for those few that don,t know what a browning BLR carbine looks like,
heres a picture someone posted
other than, it might provide the shooter with a bit more confidence
,but in most cases that Ive seen videotaped ,black bear are shot at well under 100 yards,
and if a 308 win can drop an elk at twice the distance and one that is easily twice as heavy as your average black bear it certainly does not lack lethality in skilled hands
btw I got one guy who asked me , after reading this thread,
what I would have suggested to take on that same black bear hunt if I was doing the hunting?
well to me thats a perfect match to using my BLR in caliber 358 win with those 250 grain speer bullets over a 44 grain charge of IMR 4064 with a 215 federal primer,
and id certainly select a scope with a 30mm tube and large lenses to make making shots in dim light easier.
I really doubt you could significantly improve on that combo,
as it certainly, and consistently works on larger and heavier elk.
It will be interesting to see what he decides to use!
a scope like this would be helpful
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/102227146
for those few that don,t know what a browning BLR carbine looks like,
heres a picture someone posted
06-23-2020, 05:39 PM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,743
well not that is really matters, but I really wouldn;t be considering an ELK and a BEAR in the same league when your talking body parts, there is a bigger difference in where fat builds and muscle and I have to thing even some thicker bones, hair and??
I am again NOT saying a 308 wouldn;t kill both just fine, they SURE would IMO
but there two total different animals in a lot of ways! IMO!
all have vitals , but some I think have a little more to consider before making a shot on either one than them being the same like!
and when your dealing with animals that have big claws and teeth, there is that side of things too when tracking a less than perfect hit animal, I have tracked a lot of things, and tracking something that has its own weapons, is far different , than those that don't
and YES a an elk can do damage too, but again, has different tools!
So, its not just size or LBS of an animal that can be something else to consider, and again, I have heard first hand how SO Many folks have this wrong idea that bears are out to eat us!
and that NEEDING a huge caliber to make them feel better about things
again, NOT needed and just a real lack of understanding the animal being hunted!! and well, t understanding the real way bullets kill! and what makes them do so!
there are a TON of great bear caliber's and bullet combo's on the market
I wouldn';t be able to ever say one is the BEST, too many are far too close in what they can do to even try to IMO!
we all LIKE what WE like
from calibers, actions on our rifles!
a lot fo splitting hairs when deciding and again, it tends to come down to WANTS more than needs , when buying MOST things in life IMO!
I am again NOT saying a 308 wouldn;t kill both just fine, they SURE would IMO
but there two total different animals in a lot of ways! IMO!
all have vitals , but some I think have a little more to consider before making a shot on either one than them being the same like!
and when your dealing with animals that have big claws and teeth, there is that side of things too when tracking a less than perfect hit animal, I have tracked a lot of things, and tracking something that has its own weapons, is far different , than those that don't
and YES a an elk can do damage too, but again, has different tools!
So, its not just size or LBS of an animal that can be something else to consider, and again, I have heard first hand how SO Many folks have this wrong idea that bears are out to eat us!
and that NEEDING a huge caliber to make them feel better about things
again, NOT needed and just a real lack of understanding the animal being hunted!! and well, t understanding the real way bullets kill! and what makes them do so!
there are a TON of great bear caliber's and bullet combo's on the market
I wouldn';t be able to ever say one is the BEST, too many are far too close in what they can do to even try to IMO!
we all LIKE what WE like
from calibers, actions on our rifles!
a lot fo splitting hairs when deciding and again, it tends to come down to WANTS more than needs , when buying MOST things in life IMO!
Last edited by mrbb; 06-23-2020 at 05:46 PM.
06-23-2020, 07:31 PM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,743
another thing to consider when talking bear hunting , IMO< is what type of bear hunting is this
is it over bait
which tends to mean very close shots and well set up stands, where a hunter can take there time to make a shot, and many times even have a rest!
or even when hunting say with dogs, again, very close shots most times
then you have spot and stalk, which shots can be from close to FAR!
then in many places, bear drives are very popular in very thick terrain and many times VERY fast shooting is the game as is many FAST repeated shots after the first one is fires!
I have seen many hunters go wild shooting at running bears!(deer and other game too)
then you also, have to IMO, consider WHERE your hunting bears as in STATE
some states just have bigger, heavier bears than other places, and then there is also the possibility of there being even LARGER bears , as in brown,/ grizzly, that you might want to be carrying a gun of more potent size just in case , if you follow?
so, when hunting bears a some times you have many variables to consider besides just caliber, as some bullets might work great up close and not so great far away, all the more so on some calibers that send then down range at very fast speeds
so, kind of knowing what your in for, also has a say , IMO< in what caliber/bullet to be using!
700 lbs black bears ain;t unheard of, and that's a BIG difference from the average one killed in most places, might even be 3 times the size, if you think about it??
and there are some coming closer to 800 and beyond every yr too!
I know I have personally seen several black bears in the 700+ range(and a few were on scales ALIVE) and one I swear would have broke 800 without trying in spring time, meanaing he most likely lost a 100+ lbs over winter and easy can put that back on and more by late fall!
again, NOT that a .308 wouldn;t work fine when bullet and shot placement are right!
but might be more a issue on some lighter calibers many use I
, in a less than perfect shot, and who would want to loose a trophy bear of that size due to having too little gun , LOL
as always just food for thought of sorts!
is it over bait
which tends to mean very close shots and well set up stands, where a hunter can take there time to make a shot, and many times even have a rest!
or even when hunting say with dogs, again, very close shots most times
then you have spot and stalk, which shots can be from close to FAR!
then in many places, bear drives are very popular in very thick terrain and many times VERY fast shooting is the game as is many FAST repeated shots after the first one is fires!
I have seen many hunters go wild shooting at running bears!(deer and other game too)
then you also, have to IMO, consider WHERE your hunting bears as in STATE
some states just have bigger, heavier bears than other places, and then there is also the possibility of there being even LARGER bears , as in brown,/ grizzly, that you might want to be carrying a gun of more potent size just in case , if you follow?
so, when hunting bears a some times you have many variables to consider besides just caliber, as some bullets might work great up close and not so great far away, all the more so on some calibers that send then down range at very fast speeds
so, kind of knowing what your in for, also has a say , IMO< in what caliber/bullet to be using!
700 lbs black bears ain;t unheard of, and that's a BIG difference from the average one killed in most places, might even be 3 times the size, if you think about it??
and there are some coming closer to 800 and beyond every yr too!
I know I have personally seen several black bears in the 700+ range(and a few were on scales ALIVE) and one I swear would have broke 800 without trying in spring time, meanaing he most likely lost a 100+ lbs over winter and easy can put that back on and more by late fall!
again, NOT that a .308 wouldn;t work fine when bullet and shot placement are right!
but might be more a issue on some lighter calibers many use I
, in a less than perfect shot, and who would want to loose a trophy bear of that size due to having too little gun , LOL
as always just food for thought of sorts!