Oh, I know my circumstance is a little different but that is only for a 3 day hunt.

Hunting out west is big business. The costs for non resident tags has steadily risen and like flags said people have the option of not going there plain and simple. In addition to the tag costs there is a pretty good moneymaker with the points system in most of those western states. They get a nice cut for processing fees and get to use that money interest free for a months. People who have been in the system for many years are in the drivers seat which is good for them but the point creep has made it a farce for people trying to get enough points for a good tag. A friend of mine puts in points in around 4 western states every year and the money he spends really added up over the years. I made a personal decision to not participate anymore after an issue I had with Colorado. My friend had 10 elk points and I had 3. he contacted DOW and discussed getting a bull tag for himself and a cow tag for me in a medium success GMU. They predicted success for both but at the draw he didn't get his tag and I did. We decided to not go all the way out for just a cow tag and cancelled. Colorado gave me the choice of either surrendering the tag money or lose the points. We cancelled well in advance of the season and I decided as a matter of principle they could keep their points. I had hunted that state for around 10 years in a row buying mostly OTC bull tags and one mule deer tag as well as participating in the points. The focus of all this is that the point creep moved the line far further than the DOW expected for the bull tag. I have a friend who like flags has twenty some odd points and is a lifelong CO resident. He is waiting for them to come to their senses and allow banking so he can put in for a tag and not lose all his accumulated points only lose what is necessary to draw. That in itself lessens the point creep. I did some research at the time this happened 4 years ago and the point creep really keeps going up and up often by 1 or more a year making the end line further away as you go. It is a money making racket IMO and my choice is to not participate. Rant done.

I have over 300 combined bonus/pref points in state hunting tag systems. I refer to them as "hostage" points. That is because these systems have morphed over the years to make it costly to opt out. Yes it is gradually becoming a rich man's sport. This is readily obvious to those of us who have participated in these Ponzi schemes since 1996. What irritates me more than price is states cheapening points once you buy in. Reducing nonresident quotas. Increasing auction tags. Increasing outfitter welfare. Happens every year. This year it's Maine moose, pissing away 20% of the NR quota (and zero% resident quota) to outfitter welfare. Many western states have done this since I bought in. Some states have thrown NR's under the bus so bad it's no longer worth buying in from the ground floor (Utah, Oregon, Nevada, Montana. Plus Wyoming for sheep/moose) Odds of a great unit are even power ball for guys like me with 20+ points. Money & greed are turning it into a politically corrupt business. Utah's SFW leads the way when it comes to this. I was fortunate enough to help stop them from spreading their cancer to Arizona.
But ultimately this appears to be the future of hunting.

http://kutv.com/news/local/allegatio...servation-expo

https://www.cascwild.org/don-peay-th...be-king-baron/

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/...alism%E2%80%9D

http://www.standard.net/Recreation/2...tion-Expo.html

http://www.mtbullypulpit.org/2012/06/pox-on-fox.html

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013/...n-of-wildlife/

http://westernvaluesproject.org/taxp...nters-anglers/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/us...=pl-share&_r=2

http://www.themudflats.net/archives/25891

Costly to opt out and a loser to continue. High points people never seem to get to the point where they can access the great trophy GMU's but can't justify pulling the plug for a lesser area and lose all their points even though they are getting older and probably won't get to have the hunt of a lifetime. Colorado...wake up.

As a young guy just getting into the big game hunting world. The future doesn't exactly look bright.

I envy you guys who were able to get over the counter tags for years in your home state.

I've got a total of 14 preference points accumulated between antelope, mule deer, and elk. My plan is to let the elk and mule deer points ride until I can get into a truly good unit. I'm not a trophy hunter in the slightest. But I'll wait until I can get a unit with good public access and good animal numbers.

I'm also researching moose to see if there is a good state to start building points in for that.

I'm hoping to draw in Wyoming on 2 antelope points this year.

When the kids are old enough to start building points I'll begin to apply for them and plan to take them on one big trip each as a graduation gift.

For OTC tags, things are changing. For the guys that say it isn't.. just wait, it's coming. Less than ten years ago I believe I had over 8,000 acres of private access in Ohio. Others hunted it by permission, but it was private property. going into this season I have 48 acres. The rest has been leased.

Every year I'd lose more. And every year I'd say. "I'm not paying to hunt." In Ohio it's hard to touch a lease for less than $15/acre right now... So that's $1500/ 100 acre chunk. It ain't cheap. So, I began hunting public land. I like to still hunt, even in archery, so I like big chunks of property anyway. But, this year Ohio is making changes to remove antlerless hunting after Dec 3rd and only ONE antlerless deer may be harvested on public land each year. So, this will continue to drive people to lease land. (It should help the public land populations though as they have been lower in recent years...) They lose more than a quarter of their deer season for doe at least if they don't have private to hunt. I hunt to put meat in the freezer. Typically at least six deer a year between Ohio, Pa, and WV. But most of my deer hunting is in Ohio. One antlerless deer a year ain't going to cut it....

So, even the OTC tags... are becoming a money game.

AND to be clear, I don't blame the land owners at all. they should make as much money as they can off of their property. I'm all for that. But it will clearly have a big impact on hunting. And for those who haven't seen it in your area, just wait. It'll be there soon. Our area happened in just a few short years. Once one place gets leased the rest catch on very quickly.

-Jake

I currently have 22 points for elk, 16 points for deer, 15 points for bear, 3+11 weighted for moose, 3+11 weighted for sheep, 3 for goat and 2 for pronhorn, all in CO. If I was still a CO resident I could pretty much get any tag I want but as a TX resident now competing for non-resident tags I fall short. The only tags I really want is a unit 2 either sex elk tag for the early season (takes 24 non resident points) and a unit 2 buck tag for the 3rd season (takes 17 points) so I'm getting close.

What I would like to see CO do is quit issuing points for a 5 year period and give guys like me the chance to cash in the points we have on the books. After 5 years wipe the slate clean and start over. This way the guys that played the game according to the rules they put in place don't get screwed and the playing field gets leveled. After all if I have 20+ elk points then very few people are going to beat me for a tag I really want right now, including for the majority of the so called trophy areas. Only 2 or 3 units are out of reach for me, one them just happens to be the unit I want.

Nobody ever envisioned a time when it would take 20+ points for elk or deer. I was a CO resident when they started the point system and I went to the DOW meetings on it and they figured 3-4 points max would ever be needed. That didn't work out as planned.

A lot has changed in the last few decades as far as those hunting. When my parents were born just after WW II hunting was still a big part of providing food for the table, now, very few people have to rely on wild game for meat. People are a lot more mobile then even when I was young, plus they have more discretionary income to spend on their hobbies. States with coveted game have taken advantage of this, taxing hunters more and more. Here in Montana, the FWP relies on license fee taxes from both NR and residents to run the agency. I am no fan of the 10% that the agency set's aside for NR tags, true, it is up to 10%, but still not right in my opinion when a resident does not get a permit and someone from out of state does. These preference points are just another way politicians can tax the public. Residents do not voice much concern, and NR voices have little effect of local politicians of course.

Ya Montana is one of the states I completely quit applying for. And that takes a lot given the number of states I do. Oregon is another one I want to dump & exit ASAP as well. Last MT hunt was an archery elk I did as a leftover in a general area totally worthless hunt. Never again. The deer only tag is over $600 now so not gonna do that either. Complex system forced to buy a gen just to be eligible for LE lottery, very high prices. Forced to buy small game and fishing license no thanks. On top of that I think they went to a squared points deal for sheep/moose right? No way worth it unless you got in on the ground floor. That house of cards will collapse and MTFWP will eventually screw those point holders.


I'm trying hard to burn all my highest point totals everywhere these days before those systems screw us high point holders. Barely dumped AZ elk last year just in time!!!

Congrats on accumulating such an impressive list of PP's flags. I believe my friend who lives in Alamosa has a couple more elk points. His specialty is archery elk and I think he is holding out for a specific tag not sure. He isn't getting any younger which is typical for someone with all those points. If they allowed banking he could decide that with 24 points he could get a real nice hunt probably 3 years in a row in a quality area. 8 to 10 points won't get you even close to a trophy GMU but will open the door to some pretty fine land with good antler potential. For someone on the later edge of their hunting years something like that might be pretty rewarding. I agree with your fix which would give everyone a chance to use the points and then reset the system. They should then allow banking which wouldn't screw up the points needed. If it takes 5 points to draw and numerous people with 5 to 8 points apply and then add in someone with 15 who burns all the points just to get that hunt then the next year it will take more than 5 to draw. That is how the points creep happens. There is a lot of data on how many points it took to draw in all the GMU's. It is interesting to look at it and one can see how the system needs to be fixed. I believe they talked about only using the amount of points needed to draw but for some reason they didn't implement it saying it didn't impact many people so it wasn't worth the trouble. Their system is now broken and out of control but certainly makes them money.

True enough but at what point is the limit of diminishing returns? Just how much money will the average sportsman spend on tags?

My opinion might suck but here's how I see it.

Colorado residents should have to kick in a bit more because we get over pretty good. The animals might be state owned but the public land is not. But it would not be fair to live in a area and never get to hunt out your back door so to speak. OTC might suck at times but at least you get to go hunting.

Non residents suffer in the draw and pay a good price to play the game. It should have always stayed a 50/50 draw on tags that require points to draw. That would have been fair. But then again there's states where we would have to wait in line to draw a tag in their state.

Money. It's all about money.
A ski lift ticket for just one day on the low side is $70
A movie night with the family $100
A nice dinner with your special doe $50 on the cheap side
The amount of ammo you spent on the range for your super mag $100 if you got trigger happy.

In Colorado we don't even pay 10% of what the non residents are paying for tags. Not really fair on that point either.

Suck it up and be part of the stewardship program. If elk tags were $1000.00 for residents I guess I'd save up and still go elk hunting every year. Might cut down on Mcdonalds big macs but elk is healthier. We blow that much money every year on junk.

I'm not too upset about the increasing permit costs. What I regret -- not pissed off about -- is that in my unit in Colorado first rifle season is now bull elk OR cow elk, but not either. I used to be able to buy an either sex tag and shoot whatever I happened to see -- a cow or a bull. This year I bought a cow tag. What if I only see a bull elk? I suppose they have a good reason for doing that, but that I find disappointing. If I pay 20% more for my tag now or even 35% more for my tag than I did 10 years ago? I'm not pissed, though I may regret that. My money spent on an elk license is the best money I spend all year. I think about what it would be like if I lived in France or Germany or Italy or England. Would I have hunting like I have in the United States -- like I, as a Texas state resident, have in Colorado? Think big picture, man, big picture. It could be worse.


I would add that I am not a trophy hunter. The experience of being in the high mountains (11000') in mid-October, sleeping in a canvas wall tent, wood stove heating the tent, and hunting elk is what it is all about for me. I don't measure my satisfaction in my hunt by the size of the antlers of the bull elk I kill. I'm actually happier to take a cow elk than a bull (lighter, no antlers to saw off or to lug back to camp, meat tastes better), but so far I have taken 2 bulls and 1 cow in 8 seasons.

The rub is that they have been ONLY going up for nonresidents. However, there is a bill in the current Colorado legislature (senate I believe) that could raise resident fees and allow for annual raises.......... If this happens, then I will stop complaining because it becomes a level playing field. But I will believe it when I see it. It failed to pass on an attempt last year.

You do understand that even though state fish and game agency's may be funded by "license fee's", that is just another tax, be it resident or NR. I shake my head at those that say a state game and fish is funded by license fee's, not tax dollars. Some state agency's are only allowed funding from the fee's they collect thru licensing, like here in Montana, but those are still tax dollars from us the tax payer. Montana has lodging tax and fuel tax that can be paid by a NR hunter, but little else. So before griping about fee's, especially here in Montana, remember there is no state sales tax, which could add 5-10 percent if you were to add a sales tax. So that bag of groceries you purchase here, no added tax, the guided hunt you purchased, no added tax, the beer you bought, no added tax, ect....

Here is the Bill. Looks like it cleared the Senate and is headed for the House:
https://leg.colorado.gov/sites/defau...8a_143_ren.pdf

Yes, tag fees could be called a "users tax". You only pay it if you hunt. However, though we may not pay a tax on groceries when we hunt there, we give money to the grocery man, the gasoline man (there are taxes there wherever you buy it), the outfitter, the beverage man, the hotel man, and more. All Montana businessmen who rely on our dollars. But you are right that hunting in Montana does cost a bit less in actual taxes. So that makes the $1041 big game combo tag price slightly better, but just not my cup of tea!