bigbulls

What do most hunters feel the minimum energy required on target is to cleanly take #1 elk and #2 deer? Feel free to add any other animals around the world as you like.

I don' t want this to turn into huge debate but just want personal opinions on this.

Thanks.

ELKampMaster

Asking for personal opinions (not fact, logic, or proof) and expecting no debate seems unlikely.
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In general and personally my rule is, you can have " too much energy" for an elk or a deer and everything will still work out just fine -- no penalty for " excess" energy if the man or woman (Jessica Treu -- 416 Rem Mag) is a match to their rifle.

Too little, not enough energy for an elk or a deer and it becomes " hit and miss" with the better odds of success occuring if the rifle is in the hands of a seasoned hunter and sharp shooter. On the other (absent) side are unposted horror stories from the less experienced or less fortunate experienced hunters using insufficient or marginal energy that will NEVER fess up to what occurred that day.
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P.O Ackley was a wildcatter gunsmith and hunted world wide in the 1950' s -- he liked " light and fast" cartridges [notice that is NOT my mode]. One of is missions, kind of a morbid one at that, was to kill various animals worldwide with various calibers to determine the minimum cartridge/powder/bullet combinations for various game -- hence his treatise, " Killing Power." Per P.O. Ackley .....

There are three theories of killing power with mathematical backing - ALL are ammunition for argument and ALL have their falsities:
(1) Kinetic Energy - the easiest and the one favored by those who want a simplistic approach.
(2) Momentum - which has been proven repeatedly by Sharps Buffalo hunters and Safari Hunters.
(3) Shock Theory - (remember Roy Weatherby was fresh on the scene at this time) which favored P.O.' s wildcats, but a theory P.O. did not much believe in.
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So to keep it " short" we are only talking about KINETIC ENERGY -- the easy one (Yeaaah). Humoring folks that need it easy, P.O. Ackley charted it out as follows:

Deer/Antelope/Sheep/Goat - AT STRIKING RANGE NOT AT THE MUZZLE:
900 ft/lbs minimum, 1200 ft/lbs adequate, 1500 ft/lbs or more preferred

Elk/Bear-Up To 600 lbs - AT STRIKING RANGE NOT AT THE MUZZLE:
1500 ft/lbs minimum, 2000 ft/lbs adequate, 2500 ft/lbs or more preferred

Large Bear/ Moose - AT STRIKING RANGE NOT AT THE MUZZLE:
2100 ft/lbs minimum, 2800 ft/lbs adequate, 3500 ft/lbs or more preferred

I guess I' ll go with the numbers from the guy that spent his life in the quest, and did it all rather than talk about it, and kept notes so it didn' t all become a " favorite caliber" blur.

[I' d rather be an " A" caliber student of hunting (preferred) not a " C+" (adequate) nor a " D-" (minimum). Heck use an extra 1000 ft/lbs energy and go for the A+!]
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OH NO! You mean to have a COMPETENT discussion on killing power we are going to need to discuss at a MINIMUM:
1. Three or more different elements, of which " energy" is just one of them
2. Weigh the concept of " minimum" , " adequate" , and " preferred" (always absent in these posts).
3. Adjust energy to " what you have at impact" not " what you have at muzzle" (but, but, but what if I shoot at different ranges, hmmmm)

Damn, that just about ruins it for an online forum. Can' t we instead just take our favorite caliber (especially if it is the only one we have), jump up and down - declare it the best and dismiss everyone else -- its a lot more fun that way and doesn' t require any thought, logic or proof/reference.

How could an old coot from the 50' s get so in depth and complicated on this seemingly simple subject and he didn' t even have a computer. Maybe if he would have had his own web site instead of a book he would have " dumbed it up" a bit for Internet consumption. Hey, I' m a 21st century man -- I want it whipped up simple, colorful, and easy with something I can just " click" on -- never mind understanding it, I want entertainment value.
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Oh, well -- at least the animals are the same as in 1950.
Just, match your tools to the job at hand, and of course....

Never Go Undergunned
EKM

bigbulls

Ok, didn' t need a history lesson in the wildcattings of P.O. Ackley. I know who he is and what he has done so on and so on. Yes I know that there are variables in there like bullet construction weight, frontal diameter etc... Yes a skinnier, longer bullet will penetrate better than an equal weight shorter, larger diameter bullet and so on. I am simply curious as to what peoples personal or accepted minimus are with different big game animals. If you want to add momentum in there too then go right ahead.

I' m assuming EKM, that you are pretty much in line with Ackley.

I think you just like giving me a hard time huh.

neweboarhunter

I have read and subscribe to the " theory" as follows: Deer (North American) impact energy should be around 1,000 ftlbs. I have no experiance on elk but I would be humble to start at 1,500 for smaller bulls and cows and go up from there for trophy bulls. Since we are talking about impact energy might as well talk about caliber. Deer (North American) minimum of a .243 caliber 100 grain. Boar .264 caliber 140 gr. Elk (no experiance again) but I would start at 7mm 160-175 grain. Cartridge start at 7x57 and up through the magnums. I would not argue with others who would want more gun on larger " Northern" deer. More important is that the bullet design is picked for the right game, shot placement, bullet weight for game, and distance.

ELKampMaster

bigbulls,
It' s a good thread - one hunters would do well to assess before heading out, even though it does touch on just part of a bigger " killing power" picture. Sorry if it sounds like a " hard time."

I assumed you knew of old P. O. but mentioned it for the benefit of others who don' t and also to point out that I didn' t just sit down at a ballistics table and pull that stuff out of thin air --- it was someone' s life work --- unfortunately it is a thinking man' s endeavor.

I' m betting most folks don' t know (and don' t care) how much energy their rifle has at the muzzle or at 200 yards. They shoot what they shoot; they shoot at the ranges they feel like shooting at any given moment; if it works great and if it don' t then too bad for the critter; and then they move on to the next one. Four beers and an hour and a half around the camp fire and it is the bestest rifle that ever was or ever will be.
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New Boar,
Are those energy levels at the muzzle or 200 yards out?.... and,
Is that " Just Get By" , " Fair" , or " Real Good" ?

Here is where theory meets reality:
If someone is hunting with a 1500 ft lb gun for elk hoping for a cow or a small bull and a record book 7x7 steps out at 150 yards, should they shoot it or should they go back to camp and round up a bigger gun and then come back?

That is why I .....

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

ths78

well, I suppose that bullet type, weight, and caliber would have a lot to do with the effectiveness of a cartridge.

I like to hunt with 45 calibers these days.

With a good 45 caliber 405 gr. Hard cast bullet, for deer I think you need about 300 lbs. For black bear, I think you need about 500 lbs., and for elk, I think you need about 800 lbs.

These are small numbers, but this load will penetrate very deeply, with a very wide wound channel. And once the heart or lungs are taken out, what else do you need.

neweboarhunter

Elkampmaster, The energy levels I stated are impact levels that I would want to have. If I have selected my bullet and powder wisely or factory load I would shoot the 7x7 through the lungs. I believe the energy and velocity levels for the 7x57 and other rounds in its class .308, 7m-08,.270,.280,30-06,.284win,.358win,.35 whelen etc. should have what it takes to take down any elk, out to 250-300 yards maximum. This is just my opinion. These rounds are all easy on recoil, most have numerous good factory loads and except for the .284 plenty of cheap brass for reloaders. This all adds up to shooters being able to practice with their rifles more, which means more hits. In my opinion when the range increases past 300 yds you should look at the 7mm mags to the .340 mag anymore gun is not neaded in North America. Though I have shot some .375 H&H loads that were easiser to hit with than a .338.

txhunter58

Deer: small/medium whitetail 1200 ft lbs
Large whitetail/mule deer 1500 ft lbs

Elk: 2000 ft lbs

For deer, I shoot a 270. 130/140 grain light magnum which has almost 1700 ft lbs at 400 yards.

For elk, I use a 7mm rem mag shooting 175 gr nosler partition (handloaded to 2900 fps) which has 1900 ft lbs at 400 yards. Max range about 300-350 yards.

DreaminBoutElk

I' ve always heard that for elk the minimum energy @ impact should be 1200 ft/lbs and for deer should be around 1000 ft/lbs. I prescribe to the ElkCampMaster theory of never going undergunned. I shoot a .300 mag when elk elk hunting and set up my loads so that I am maintaining at least a ton of energy at any range that I will shoot at. That puts me out to about 475 yds. I simply won' t attempt anything longer that. Not only for energy reasons, but also for reasons of bullet drop. I set my gun up for an optimum point blank for a 8 inch target. That puts me on a 300 yd zero and a 370 yd max. With this set up, I can shoot out to about 475 yds and still be able to keep my crosshairs on the animal.

The long and short of it is..It' s good to think about impact energy, but IMO you need to think as much about getting the package there as you do about the the size of the package. There are a bunch of FREE ballistics programs available online. There is no substitute for knowing what your particular load is doing at all feasible shot ranges.

bigbulls

You guys are making this too hard. Just tell me how much energy you require at the target as a minimum for the animals you hunt. Yes we are all using premium bullets designed for holding up on large animals. IE: Nosler, Barnes, TBBC, failsafe, A-Frame.

I' m not needing your personal shooting ability, maximum PBR and all of the other stuff. Just simply how much energy at the target.