Del Sol Outfitters
 

I initiated this thread after having a bad experience - if you go to the last page - Shay Mann offers to make it up to me, I do not know if I will take him up on it - regardless he offered - I have nothing else to say about Del Sol- they obiviously care about their clients

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

That's a lot of money. Good for you for letting people know you were disappointed. Sorry it wasn't as great as you'd hoped.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

man of death;
I hope U left a big tip so ya don't get turkeyward all shookup[&:]

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Are you talking about Shay Mann?
Del Sol in Oregon?
And the great Dutch Oven Cook?

T

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

That's good to know.

It is unfortunate and disappointing to a degree that is hard to communicate when you put so much trust in an outfitter and they hang you out to dry. I sure hope your future hunts are successful and fulfilling!

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Man, that's alot of money, too bad you got treated like crap. I have never understood why people (guides/outfitters) do this, it is not good word of mouth...maybe someday they will realize that bad news travels twice as fast as good news...Word of mouth is everything in this business!

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

I'm curious as to what hunt package you booked. They offer several.
Their Delux package is a bit vague on their web site.
Shay Mann posted on Jesseshunting.com a couple years ago a video of a hunt.
Every body was impressed by the video.
I was a bit skeptical after having been on several wilderness hunts and then watching them build their website.
If I ever go on another guided Elk hunt it will be with one outfit and one outfit only out of Jackson Wyoming.
They deliver the goods.

T

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

man of death:

who was the guide? was it Shay Mann?? i know of them and know MANY that use their services and feel that you may be mis-leading others on this site.... can you clearify please!

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

My name is Shay Mann and I work for Barry Cox and Del Sol Wilderness Adventures. My screen name is Shay Mann and my phone number is 541-912-0340, so I have nothing to hide. I know of the trip that this anonymous poster is referring to. I won't get into a big he said she said battle on hunting forums. But as most of you know there are two sides to the story.

I will be the first to say that there were a couple of logistical issues, but they were solved to the best of our ability considering the circumstances.

The assumption being made is that this camp is a summer camp and only a hunting camp afterthought is extremely misleading. We can have camps that are used as summer camp as well as elk camps. This is the same camp that Cameron Hanes has hunted out of for many years. This country is tough. Elk are not around every tree. You have to work for it, you have to climb mountains, hike for miles and overcome the mental and physical challenges that ANY true wilderness elk hunt demands. Unless you are hunting on ranch with fences.

All but one of the guys in the group are from the Midwest area, hunting primarily whitetails. I'm not trying to sound insulting, but wilderness elk hunting is nothing like whitetail hunting. That is why you don't see many people back there. Elk don't reside behind every tree, and in every draw or canyon.

As I'm writing this, I'm starting to get a little irritated or at least concerned that we are getting a bad rap in this regard. I previously stated that I won't get into a "he said, she said" But I think I may have just changed my mind. This isn't the first post from this author on a hunting forum, misleading others of the situation that happened last year.

We had two archers from California that booked a hunt, and stayed in the exact same location. First year elk hunters, they didn't kill an elk. But had shots, and have already booked for next year. They hiked out, bivy'd out and did all they could to get them the best opportunity. The loved it....

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

I should mention, that only one person paid for a guided hunt. The others paid for just a deluxe hunt. Which includes tent accommodations, cook, and all the basics that a camp would include. The guide (Jordan) was there for one reason, and that was to hunt for his only client. And he did. If there was a promise that the other clients would have riding horses, then I guess we didn't provide that. But we wouldn't have made an offer for riding horses, and just allowed them to take off on their own. Not with our insurance, and not with our animals. Jordan couldn't ride everybody out, because he was guiding for his client that paid the extra money for the guide.

Here is a quote from the guided client after the hunt.

"I saw your e-mail. Just so you know, I was pleased with my hunt and Jordan.
Jordan did a great job for me and is an overall great guy. I had my chances at a bull and was fortunate enough to get a shot at a huge bull. Tell Jordan hello for me and tell him I enjoyed the trip and meeting him. As far as the others, they were just disappointed in the number of elk they saw.
Me, I saw elk."

The tent situation, again, was a misunderstanding thinking that we had heaters in there. Which we didn't. But during the heat of the battle, we provide mantie tarps and horse pads to get them through the cooler nights. But my only question is that if someone knew they are going to bivy or spike out for a few nights away from the comforts of a deluxe camp setup, wouldn't that person have brought a heavier sleeping bag or bag liner, instead of a "lighter bag" as mentioned in the original complaint.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Next point...

There was reference made of another hunter 7 miles away with another outfitter. I'm assuming that was me and Kirk Edgerton. It was a bit more like 15 miles away, but that is besides the point. I'm a die hard bowhunter, and each season I get the month of September off to hunt for myself. Kirk hunts with me. I was not in an official capacity as a guide. I was hunting with Kirk as a friend, not a guide and client. But I did know the area so, I guess that makes me the so-called "guide". I have to pay for the labor and the horses to go hunt for myself. And so does Kirk. He paid for a "Drop camp", just as I did.

Yes, we did get into elk, we saw about 9 bulls in 10 days on that trip. But I will note, on a 10-day hunt, we spent 2 days at base camp, the first night, and the last night. The rest of the time were freezing OUR asses off out in Bivy Sacks and tarps, eating Mountain House and candy bars. And didn't have a horse one at our disposal. Until we got picked up.

See, that is how you have to bowhunt elk in the wilderness. You have to get out of your comfort zone and cover some ground. And even then, it isn't guaranteed. I didn't kill an elk on that trip. But thank God Kirk did. And I'm not going to diminish our sacrifice and effort and apologize for working our tails off for his first bull. That was one of the highlights of my hunting career. And I know it was for him.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

In closing...

I realize good, hard-earned money was paid for this trip. And I know the clients were disappointed in us, the elk numbers and everything else. But I will go to bat for our outfit, and defend it any day of the week. When we screw up, we recognize it, and do our best to remedy it. I'm sorry it wasn't the hunt that was expected. But we don't just throw clients in an area, because it is convenient for us. It is paramount that our hunters are successful and have a good time. That drives our business.

We learned from this experience as well. We are screening people more aggressively now. Getting the point across that this is tough country with cagey elk. I can't hammer the point enough that this is an extremely tough hunt.

This last season we had 3 groups who signed up for 10 day hunts, that called us within 7 days wanting out. One called within 5 days. I'm not saying that this group was like this, but my point is that maybe we have to do a better job in screening and laying out our deliverable verses the clients expectations.

By no means were we out to screw this group. Even offered to make it right with a trip this past year, and try to smooth things out. Whatever we could agree to and work out.

We live and die by word of mouth. I'm on a lot of forums, and read a lot in the outfitter review forums. I know what bad word of mouth can do. And we strive to make it right and do it right.

That is about all I can say at this point. Unless other arguments are brought up and mis-information is spread. Then I will speak up.

I will answer any direct questions anyone has about our outfit.

By the way, I'm new to this site. Never been on it before. So I will now browse around.

Regards,

Shay Mann

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Although i was not mentioned by name in the first post, i know it was directed at me. I'm the hunter in the videos on Del Sol's site and you're partially correct, i was hunting with shay, not as a guest, but as a paid client. I make no excuses or appologies for being friends with Shay, he's a great guy and a damn good elk hunter, but just like you and everyone else, i pay to play. On all my hunts with Del Sol, i pay for drop camps, hunting bivy style from there and putting dozens on miles on my feet. I hunt hard, work my tail off, and have some success. The Eagle Cap is HUGE country and the hunting is very tough, that's why its referred to as a wilderness hunt. If you want easy game, a fluffy time, and not in shape, hunt somewhere else, plain and simple!

I've hunted with Del Sol a handful of times, all drop camps and my experience each time has been great......they've delivered as promised each and every time.

I hate for this to be my first post on this site, but i felt compeled to post up. Reputation is key and one person can easily make or break an outfit. So i'm posting up as a client and fan of Del SOl, not just as Shay's friend. If anyone has questions in regards to their outfit,feel free to drop me an e-mail.

Kirk Edgerton
aka...Arrowslinger on most other sites.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Sleeping in an un-heated dome tent is a far cry from a heated wall tent.I spend many nites on the mountain, and I know personally that warmth is critical to the hunt, this issue seems a little absurd to me, horse pads and mantie tarps, are you kiddin me? I'm not passing judgement at this point, but something is seriously screwed up with this scenerio, being wet and cold are the two worse things to deal with in my book. So what gives guys?

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Good point, but who would head into the mountains unprepared for cold weather. I take two bags with me, one for each possibly extreme weather condition. Sometimes being well prepared is the first step to a successful trip.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

I believe that is the oufitters responsiblity isn't it? To define the parimeters of the hunt and the necessary equipment. Most outfitters have a weight load they enforce at the trailhead and most send an equipment list out to clients. If i were told I would be in heated wall tents i sure as hell wouldn't bring two bags. I've guided, done interior back pack hunts, horse back hunts andI have yet to bring two bags or see anybody else do that for that matter.:eek:

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Here is the spike camp that was packed in for these guys. So I ask, If you know you were going to spike camp out, wouldn't you bring a bag for either both environments. Or have a bag that works in both.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

You are right however. It is the outfitters responsibility to define the parameters of the the hunt and the necessary equipment. I'm in total agreement with you there. I'm not saying we weren't at fault with the tent issue.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Here is a photo of the tents that were used at base camp.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Photo of the camp setup....

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Shay, when i go into the wilderness I have 3 survival concerns: 1. Suffering a serious injury. (Usually, nobody has much control over that.) 2. Getting lost. (should never happen with proper equipment and knowledge, outfitter controls this) 3. Getting cold/wet/hypothermia (also should never happen with proper knowledge/ equipment, outfitter also controls this). I personally think that violating 1 of the 3 no-nos of wilderness survival is rather big deal. Frankly, I would be pissed if i brought inadequate cold weather gear and had to sleep in a dome tent. I can prepare, so long as i know the conditions. Man, when i'm cold, my functional ability starts to deminish quickly, as does everybody's. In my view an outfitter should make the camp so comfortable, that the only thing the hunter need worry about is hunting. I agree if a hunter is not prepared for the mental and physical demands of a true wilderness hunt, they won't be happy, no question, and that is the hunters fault. Frankly, few are prepared for this type of hunt. As far as where you and your buddy were hunting, I think that is not an issue. I also think that too many hunters have unreasonable expectations. However, as an outfitter, camp conditions can take a lot of sting off a disappointing hunt if the camp is supurb. My 2 cents, worth price charged.:D

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

I'm in total agreement about camp life being able to take the sting off a disappointing hunt.

Day time temps during that week were in the 80's and night time temps never getting even close to freezing. So, I don't believe we were in violation of your rule #3. Maybe just a tad uncomfortable, getting in and out of the sleeping bag.

With that aside, if these guys were uncomfortable at camp. Then that is my issue, and my responsibility. But besides the tent issue, I know the camp life was great.

If I sound a bit defensive, then maybe I am. When someone says that we just threw someone in an area because it was easy for us, and that we don't care that they have a good hunt. Then I will get defensive. The tent, well, we beat that topic to death. But this was an early September archery hunt in mostly blue-bird weather. So that issue seemed small to me, with the help of heavy canvas tarps.

In-fact, when the guy who complained about being cold was given a tarp, his exact quote was "Problem Solved."

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

I would say the hunter even during a earilySept hunt bringing a light sleeping bag going in by horseback isnt the best idea, weather in the mountains can change on a dime for one. Why not take a heavier bag? Even in a wall tent with a stove, nights can still get cold unless you plan to get out of your bagevery hour to stoke the fire. Which only means less sleep to keep the fire goingand more time cutting firewood during the dayso your able to keep a fire going all night. Onlytime I consider taking a light bag is in theevent I have topersonally carry it on my own back ona backpack hunt. Looking at the web site, I noticed theyadvertised if not taking a guide, would not have the option to riding out with horses to hunt.....Only 1 guy hiredthe guide so as I would readwho didnt hire on for a guidewould not get access to horses during the hunt, rather hunt on foot during the trip.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Well the original poster hasn't replied or clarified anything, at least the guide was on here explaining. Other than the tent issue, which the outfitter took responsibilty for, I don't see a lot wrong here. A lot of hunters complain about a lack of game b/c they simply are not accustomed to the effort required to get into elk. We hiked a back pack camp in over 5 miles on our backs this year, and several miles a day of hiking/calling to get into the elk, but we got in to em.;) We stayed in light-weight one man tents, cooked our own meals on jet-boil stoves, and had to walk down hill to get water, and i loved it, so I guess to each their own. I think if the original poster is going to trash an outfitter, they could at least get on here and explain in more detail. I'm not a big fan of outfitters in general, but their reputation is critical and one should respect that it is somebodys business wether you like outfitters or not.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

I have done do-it-yourself fly in hunts in Alaska for years. I spend all of my time in a dome tent, because heated wall tents are far too heavy to pack into a SuperCub. I have flown with several pilots. All I considered good, some better than others. I eat crappy de-hydrated food, sleep on the cold ground (sometimes I can bring my Go-Kot), and pump my own water. My backpack always has a cheap tarp that I cut into two pieces. One is to siwash it out at night if I am on a moose and I know I wont get back to camp. The other is used for placing quartered game on while I de-bone and butcher. I bring a -20 bag no matter what, because I would rather be prepared than not. I wear Mendell or Lowa boots because everything else out there is junk in comparison. I wear wool clothing because it keeps you warm when wet. I use Helle knives because you cannot sharpen Japanese steel with a stone. I use a Barney's Sport Chalet pack because it hauls game the best. Bottom-line, I come preprared.

That is wilderness hunting. I would kill for the luxery of a horse and they make me sneeze. Last moose took us eight days until we actually found a bull worth shooting, walking several miles per day.

Problem is guys don't know what they are getting themselves into when they go wilderness hunting. Outfitters needs to emphasize this, and guys need to figure out how to pack.

YOu should also have an exercise program six or eight months prior to these hunts.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Check out this hunt that we did for Cameron Hanes and his 15 year old son. Great story and write-up

www.cameronhanes.com or

www.cameronhanes.com/?p=374

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Shay - you are almost as good as posting as you were selling us on this hunt. The truth is not in you. As I stated we hunted out of a camp that you guys had used for summer trips the tents stay up year round - your guys were actively trying to get a permit from the state while we were there. There were no elk in the area despite the fact that you assured us you had scouted the area. All 4 of us had hunted elk and killed elk in Colorado this was not out first hunt. It was our first and last experience with Del Sol. You didnt hold up your end of the deal and I told you that I would give an honest reference on the service. The problem was not Bob his food was great. Jordan was also great he worked his tail off for Grant. I dont know who came up with problem solved I froze my ass off. I do agree with Muley we should have been prepared but we had several conference calls with both you and Barry . I asked about what type of bag I should bring and you told me we would have heated tents so I brought a light bag.


I have done the do it yourself hunt several times in both New Mexico and Colorado with success. I paid Del Sol to put me in an area with game and provide me with a comfortable camp and you didn't hold up your end of the deal.

Also howdid you and Kirk hunt an different area when Barry told us he was only licensed in the area we camped in. Did you violate the terms of his license? You never represented Kirk as a friend in the video - but as a client. Is it me or are you mis representing the services you offer . The others will respond as well - you didnt offer us anything but it really didnt matter we are done with Del Sol. We were all in excellant shape and hunted our tails off

Fellows - if you need more info pm me before you book with these guys - what you see is not what you get

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

If an outfitter promised heated wall tents, then they better damn well provide that. What the hell else are you paying for besides food? However, even in a wall tent setup, I would bring a 0 degree bag at least. You can never be too warm in the mountains. As for game, well that's always a crap shoot, so I don't think you can fault the outfitter. My $0.02.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

What do you mean, how did we hunt in a different area when Barry told us he was the only licensed in the area? I work for Barry, and I hunted smack dab in the middle of our packing permit. I don't understand what you are saying.

Del Sol dropped Kirk and I off in the middle of our permit area. Just because I work for Del Sol 11 months out of the year, doesn't mean I can't hunt in our permitted pack area. We had other camps in our unit the same time you were in there. You weren't the only camp in 100,000 acres.

I wasn't working when I was hunting with Kirk. I was hunting for myself, and Kirk and I were both paying clients of Del Sol. I have to pay for the services that we use, even though I work for Del Sol. There is an opportunity cost, when I take up time and resources that I have to make good.

We were legal in that area, and we hunted the same area again this past year. I don't understand that argument.

We probably have about 100 thousand acres of allowable permitted area to use. Your camp wasn't the only one in our area. Barry said he was the only licensed outfitter for your camp, meaning that no other outfitter can work camps in our area. Pretty normal operating procedures for outfitters.

Remember the "Hell Hole" that you guys complained about having to walk in and out of??? A 30 minute to an hour walk??? A huge 6X6 bull missed in Hell Hole this year, and a spike killed. Again, the head of the main drainage that you were at, clients got into a ton of elk in there this year. I'm sorry, there wasn't elk around every corner. But we did scout it, I saw elk there, Jordan saw elk there. Barry was in there with elk. Do you not remember that bull going through your camp. Or did you forget about that. Or did you not forget that on the way out, Barry spotted you guys a bull in that Basin on the way out. That none of you were really interested in going after it.

I don't even know if this is D.H or S.D. posting here. But as I did say, I regret the tent issue. And the heater issue. I know you paid alot of money. But I did not sell you a bill of goods. You really think in the day of hunting forums and internet posting, that I enjoy defending ourselves. We have a great reputation, and have good success for opportunities during archery and rifle season. We have people that have already booked for next year. Some that didn't even kill this past year. But they understand that you may only get one opportunity.

Why wasn't any of this brought up during the hunt, or when Barry was there. When I asked Barry how he thought everything went, he said you guys were pretty happy and tipped well. Usually, if I'm that disappointed in a product or a service. Ticked off enough to slam us for a year after the fact. I surely wouldn't tell the owner of the outfit that everything was fine, and pay a good tip.

Were we perfect?... NO and never will be.
Did we put you in an area that historically have elk? ... YES.
Did 3 of us scout the area? ABSOLUTELY YES !!!!
I was there 3 days before you got there. I Hiked in 10 miles to check out that country, got into a big herd in the large basin that you ride through, about a 30 minute walk to camp.

Yes, I don't deny that we use that camp and other camps, for summer camp locations. This one is a good spot, and a hub to some lakes, and is on top for access to other creeks and basins. But we did it again this year. A summer camp in July and August, doesn't mean there are not elk there in September. Plain and Simple.

Again, I'm sorry the experience wasn't exactly what you wanted. I'm sorry about the tent issue. But did you think that your spike camp was going to be a wall tent with a stove? Maybe I'm assuming to much here, that is my fault. But an early September spike camp doesn't usually include a wall tent and a stove. Were you the only one not intending on spiking out? So you didn't bring a "spike" quality sleeping bag.

We've had these conversations and back and forth bantering before. I don't expect anything to get solved here on the forums. I don't expect you to believe me or be happy. Because this has been going on for a year, and you seem to be a man on a mission, spending a lot of time and energy to let everyone know how disappointed you are in our service. So I don't expect it to ever be resolved.

I guess I will fight just as hard or more than the effort you are putting out to maintain our excellent name as you are in to destroying it. Nothing I can do to change the past, I don't think there is anything I can do to make you see my side. So I guess this will be an ongoing battle, that I will deal with. And I will fight. This is our livelihood. I eat and live based on the success of this business. And realize that a good reputation is the only thing that matters.

I welcome any other points you want to post. In private or in public.

[email protected]

Respectfully,

Shay Mann

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

I agree with you on a heated wall tent. I don't know how many more times I can admit to this very critical logistical error. And take full responsibility for it. You do pose a very important question: "What else is being paid for besides food."

Here is the breakdown:

Total cost for the trip: $11,500 (8 Days)

Client 1: $2500
Client 2: $2500
Client 3: $2500
Client 4: $4000

Clients 1, 2 and 3 paid for a Supplied Camp plus a cook (Deluxe Camp / No Guide)
Client 4: paid for a Supplied Camp, plus a cook (Deluxe Camp / WITH Guide)

A typical Supplied camp is $1500 - $2000 per hunter.

We charged the hunter with a guide $187.50 / day for 8 days. We pay our guide $150.00 / day.

Again I have nothing to hide here.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Shay, its Shaun not David . Why not use my name you didnt mind putting our picts up. You are full of crap, you told me and Harp both not to feel bad you had hunted the same area and didnt get your bull either. Guess you can keep your story straight. You promoted the hunt and never stepped foot in our camp, Barry didnt either other than the first and last night. If you so reputable why dont you have someone besides Kirk and Jordan doing testimonials on your site? I dont stand you gain anything you got my money - just hope someone else doesnt make the same mistake. Who should they believe - me or a guy trying to sell his services. You fell short and didnt do anything about it . BTW, Ellis went to Colorado this season and killed a bull and a muley that will make the books maybe he should get in the business. Buyer beware

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

You got cold, be a man and stop the whinning. Shay said there was a mix up and appologized, its backcountry hunting, things go wrong, storms hit and people get cold. Christ, I've camped in the rain and cold with 5 year olds and have heard less complaining. I'm done with you and please do me a favor, leave my name out of your conversation and comments. I'm a paying hunter at Del Sol and work hard to be successful, something you might want to consider on future hunts.

Oh yeah, if you were this upset, you should have chatted with Barry when he came to pick you up or immediately after your trip.....doing it a year after, come on man?

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

I knew it had to be your or David, because Jeff and Grant didn't have a problem with the hunt. Grant sent me an email saying that everything was fine. And Jeff got into elk everyday of the hunt... Why you ask??? because he didn't get back to camp until after 10:00 each night. And he had Bivy gear to stay out.

I used the photos to show the country, and to show that you spiked out in blue bird weather. And yet still decided to complain about not being prepared with a sleeping bag. The whole crux of your argument is still the tent situation (which i've taken full responsibility for) and that we didn't scout for elk, which is completely unfounded.

Let me ask you this... Did a herd of elk (around 15-20 head) including a spike bull come within 92 yards of the tent one day??? Simple yes or no answer? And did someone in your group actually go after that spike and make a play on it.

Why is Kirk and Jordan the only one on film talking about a hunt. (Oh yeah, Dennis Pontoni was on there as well) The simple reason, was because I was filming on those hunts. I don't film just random client hunts. That isn't part of our package deal. We can't afford to send a camera man with every hunter.

As far as testimonials, I welcome you to call anyone one of these people listed below. And I will have other testimonials on our website.

Kevin Akers 503-753-2902
Chris Fryman 541-619-1106
Brian Lamvik 503-522-3635
Clyde Stone 503-538-5778
Chad Jackson 503-329-9797
Cameron Hanes [email protected]


I've got alot more. Be my guest call anyone of them. Ask them how they hunted, and if they were successful. So were this year, and some weren't. It is bowhunting my friend.


And about my story being straight. I told you and David to not feel bad, because I know 10 times more of the Eagle Cap than you guys do. And I hunted 10 days longer than you guys did, and I didn't kill anything. My point is, is that you are hunting cagey elk, that move from one basin, or one drainage to another. They can be in one part of the country one day, and split the next. If you want a high fenced elk hunt, maybe you should choose an outfitter who doesn't have "Wilderness Adventures" in their name.



What does Jeff Ellis have to do with your argument, saying that he went to Colorado and killed a bull and an elk. Jeff is a hell of a hunter. And that is a quote from Jordan. If he wants to get into the packing business, he is probably more than capable. A few horses, a National Forest Permit, truck and trailer, he is off to the races. I still don't see what that has to do with anything we are discussing here.


So you can go ahead and say things like "I'm full of crap", or whatever else. I'm trying to discuss the facts on what went on to the best of my knowledge. Not the best place for a discussion. But I haven't heard from you in over a year. So if this is the forum you want to rattle off in, then I'm total game.


You got anything else? Are we going to now resort to personal name calling?

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Sounds like elk hunting in about any area.

Interesting thread. I didn't follow it for a few days, but it got interesting. It is hard to resolve the differences between expectations and reality. The tent deal, well someone dropped the ball I suppose. Send the unhappy client a couple of hundred bucks back and don't ever book him again.

I will say manofdeath, if you believe you were wronged you need to address it directly with the outfitter and give him a chance to make things right by you. If you are concerned others may be done wrong, then it is good to get the word out. However, you need to be careful that all you post is factual. If you assert there were no elk in that area, when indeed there were; or that it wasn't scouted, when indeed it was; then you are crossing the lines of slander or libel. If a person causes damage to another person (an outfitter in this case) through slander or libel, then they are setting themselves up for a possible civil suit.

This isn't really directed toward manofdeath or shay, but to those considering elk hunting who haven't. You can't control elk. They cover a lot of ground. If it is a wilderness area, there will no doubt be elk. Even regular elk hunters seem reluctant to do what it takes in lean years or in areas where the population is down. This year I listened to the majority of hunters complaining that there were no elk. Sign was slim compared to most years, and the elk were scattered more, rather than herded up as usual during October. Still we saw elk most times we went up and the rare sign everytime. I've seen more elk between 10 am and 4 pm then in the early mornings and late evenings together. If your in camp more than to sleep and grab a pre/post sleeping bag bite to eat, then you are robbing yourself of valuable hunting time. If you are at camp during mid day, then you are definately not coving a LOT of country that requires dark to dark hiking.

We can all get lucky at times, and the fact is that a wilderness hunt is not necessarily a better chance at a big bull then easier hunts in other areas. Most people have no idea how rough some country can be. I've lived and hunted in several ranges. Where I'm at now makes many ranges look tame. Run up the Snake River canyon south of Jackson and you'll see steep that sets the standard for tough country. You may have experience in one area and find it does nothing to prepare you for a another.

There is nothing like hunting elk, and--except maybe seeking monster muleys--it can test your mettle like nothing else as well. If your going on a mountain elk hunt, be prepared for harsh, steep country, for blizzards and below zero weather, keep yourself well hydrated with water (not too many sugar drinks), take clothes for any weather: dry or wet; -20 to +90... Its hard to get in shape for high altitude hunting at a low altitude. You can condition the muscles, and get the cardo vascular to peak for your altitude, but will still feel like your having a major asthma attack climbing at 9500 ft. Arriving a few days early and spending them up high, before you join up with your outfitter, will help to acclimatize. Even a couple of days at 6000 ft will help.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

i can't believe someone is whinning about having another hunter within 7 miles of them. i wish i could hunt area's that no one was within 1/4 of a mile from me.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Do you think it was a goodbusiness decision, even if you did pay for it, to hunt the same area that you are guiding. The PERCEPTION to the hunter, especially after you got into 9 bulls in 10 days, was that you had a honey hole that you did not allow the paying clients to go to.

The hunter does not know what kind of arrangement you have with your boss, he is only hearing that you are getting into elk every day and your friend even tagged out.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

I see your point. And yes, maybe I shouldn't show the success that I had in an particular area. Might rub other clients the wrong way. But we did put them in a good spot. How many bulls has Cameron Hanes killed in this area? I can think of 6 or 7 off the top of my head. And about as many bucks. We had 2 guys hunt out of that camp this year, and they got into elk. I won't hesitate putting people in this camp. I did it again this year, and will do it again next year.

Me being a bowhunter, I think is an asset to the outfit. I live in these mountains during the summer and hunt it during bow season. I'm not just selling a hunt, or just a horseman, or an outfitter. I think I reflect
the average guy who comes in there to hunt. And I think it is good that I can put people in the best possible place to kill, based on first hand experience. I'm not that dumb, to think that it is good for business if our clients don't kill. I want people to kill, I want good references, I want good word of mouth. I don't welcome this complaint at all, especially in this public forum. But that is part of the deal, I guess.

I cut my teeth hunting these mountains, and yes I do know alot of area. And I know that if I put myself or Kirk or whomever I want, and we hunt the same area that was listed in this initial complaint. I know that I will have opportunities. Maybe not kill anything, but I will get into elk. In-fact we did kill this year, only a mere 45 minutes from this camp this year. A big 6 X 6 was shot at, and a spike killed. Out of a herd of nearly 100.

Maybe we will only do Backpacking Drop Camps during archery season. If you hunt off your back, then all you do is hunt. If you have a nice camp to come back to, with great food and good company. How hard are you going to hunt? If you get dropped off, and then hunt off your back. Well the only thing you have to do is hunt. And it might remove the argument from hunters, that there wasn't any elk in the immediate area of camp. Very rarely are elk in the immediate area of camp.

Thanks for the constructive critisism, I welcome that. And thanks for not saying that "I'm full of crap". I don't think that gets us anywhere.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

If someone wants to pay for a guided trip, then I will guide them in these mountains. And though we may setup base camp at this camp in question. We probably won't spend more than a day or two at this camp, if there isn't any elk in the immediate area.

We would load up the packs, grab the bivy gear, including a cold-weather sleeping bag, we would lace up our boots, and we would hammer our feet going out looking for elk. It may be uncomfortable at times, we may get a little wet, we may get a little cold. But we would leave it all on the table. We won't come back on the last day of the hunt and wonder "did we do everything we could do to kill a bull" That question would be answered with a resounding 'YES'.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

Maybe we are expecting more from our clients than we should. Maybe I need to do a better job screening clients. This is a tough hunt, physically demanding, and mentally challenging. We want hunters who understand this, and hunters with realistic, high mountain, wilderness, public-land expectations.

Because if you aren't of this mindset, you will be disappointed.

RE: Del Sol Outfitters
 

I dunno, my first (and hopefully not last) elk hunting trip wasn't with an outfitter, but rather with my buddy's dad (who used to guide and grew up in the area), but we hiked 6 miles (and 2500 feet elevation) leading pack horses to sleep in a homemade (on the spot, out of a lot of tarps and a lot of rope) tent in the last rifle season. Morning temps in the tent were between 0 and 5 F, I didn't sleep a bit the first 2 nights (the 50+ mph wind and snow blowing in through the tarps didn't help), we ate mountain house meals all week, had to carry our water from a spring up the hill a ways, and I only saw the hind end of one elk for a split second, and then had a good look at a spike that I couldn't shoot.

And I can't wait to go back.

Even if I didn't really get acclimated to the altitude til the last day of our hunt :) You can get in shape (which I did fairly well), but it's still hard to prepare for 10,000 feet when the highest point around where you live is 3000 feet.



My point is (if I have one) is that you don't go Elk hunting expecting a walk in the park. I don't think I would head into the Rockies in the middle of summer without a cold weather sleeping bag, just in case. Even if the tent had been heated, heaters can break down, right?