Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

Okay, with all the discussion going on lately about using an outfitter or not using an outfitter I thought I would pose a question to the group and get some thoughts on the subject of using an outfitter on public land.

There are several states that are closer to me than where I grew up in Montana, or even where I hunted this year in Wyoming, but I've never hunted those states and don't have a good feel for where the best spots to hunt would be.

I don't need an outfitter to help me hunt or to help me pack out my animals, but it would be nice to have someone help me get a better idea where the game would be at certain times of the year. There are some outfitters who do semi-guided or drop camps in addition to their full guided options and I thought that might be something to consider.

My ethical dilema is if I used an outfitter one year and they showed me the areas on public land where the animals were hanging out, would it be right to go there the next year or even a few years later and not use them as an outfitter but go in DIY?

To me it seems like it wouldn't be the right thing to do. If my friend shows me a honey hole that they hunt on public land, I'm not going to go back in there without my friends permission.

Just curious what others might think on the subject.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

If I hunt with an outfitter, and I've done that a lot as well as a ton of DIY hunting; I wouldn't go back where he took me, even several years later. If you want him to provide a scouting service, be honest with him and tell him so. If you want a guided hunt and all that entails, then hire a good one and enjoy your hunt.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

I kinda look at it this way if it's on public land, and U pay a guide to show U the ropes then it's open season after that!! same as a friend showingU his honey hole if he did want U hunting or fishing ithe would not have shown it to U!!!!![&:]

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

I think that's why some of the better outfitters hunting on public land are taking you into statutory Wilderness Area - it's SO difficult to get you there that there's little to no chance you're going to be able to collect the pack animals, etc. required to DIY.

If the area you wish to hunt is public and it's reasonable for you to get there on your own, then it's open season as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise, you're implying that the outfitter has some kind of exclusive use of that particular piece of public property. They'd love for that to be true,and in factalmost had legislation introduced (Larry Craig- ID) that would allow them that restriction.

I kind of have issues though with the term "outfitter" and "guide". Not so much with those who haul you back into difficult parts of the country under primitive conditions (i.e. take risks, work their arses off), but the ones who pick you up at theBest Western in the morning in their F350 crew-cab, hand you a cup of hot Starbucks, then drive you out to Farmer Fred's field and coach you as you shoot a deer on a plot or salt lick. Rather than calling them "outfitters", they more deserve a term like "shooting chauffeur". I'm sure people would still pay themto do it.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

I have to tell you, it would be wrong, I see this point from two different perspectives.
1. If you guide this is his way of supporting his family, and although it is on state land he still has to support them.Now speaking of my buddy who is a guide, all state land is his and if he has clients down no one should hunt the area his clients are in, even though we used to hunt those same areas before he became a guide and is all public lands.
2. It is public land and my suggestion if you know how to hunt, do some research on the area via local biologists, sportsman stores, and ranchers and farmers, they will point you in the right direction, and bypass the outfitter all together, to avoid any conflict.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

If it's public land I would show guided hunters the same respect I would any other hunter, no more. I sure wouldn't stay out of the area because they were with a guide.If I did use a guide and he takes me to a good public hunting spot, he definately runs the risk of me coming back alone or with buddies. Public ground is here for us to use and we all need to make the best of it.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

I think that part of using an outfitter is gaining the knowledge that they give you, including when, where, and how. Year to year elk (especially) use different areas and outfitters are up on this current situation. Gaining a spot is great, but you just don't know unless you can scout it beforehand if animals are using it this year. Summer rainfall,fall weather, and pressure change these spots, so it's not a sure thing. I don't think it's unethical. Just make sure you use an ethical outfitter. There are some bad ones out there and giving them your money is unethical.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

I wouldn't go back in to an area that an outfitter took me in even if it was public land.It just doesn't seem right to me.That is how they earn their living and in my opinion to use their knowledge and pay for it once and then to go back and hunt it again year in and year out is the wrong thing to do.I am sure the outfitter would be pissed if they saw your smiling face in there the next year after they had taken you in.
Have you done any thing illegal? No you havn't but not very honorable in my opinion.As it relates to bringing a friend or guest in to an area that I have scouted and hunted.If they came back in with out my permission our friend ship would be over.That a low life thing to do in my opinion.
If you want to DIY out of state and you have hunted with a guide previously,and the guide was honorable I would suggest staying out of their guiding territory.You can call a states guides and outfitters association for the guides territory.
Plenty of ground out in most of the western states,there is no reason to not to find your own area's.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

tsoc, I see what you're saying and I think you have a very valid point. The truth is, most outfitters are not going to put you in places you can DIY reasonably without horses. However, most outfitters don't operate in secret places anyway. Here in MT, it seems outfittersgo to the same places everyone knows aboutand just push back 10-15 miles. Can't do that on foot. Or, they'll have leased private property you can't get on anyway.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

Mtmountainman, my comments were not directed at you specifically,just the topic.Definitely not practical for guy's to get that deep without a huge commitment of horses and equipment.
I hunt in Idaho every year for whitetails.We go unguided.There is one outfitter in the town we hunt out of and we are on decent terms with him.There definitely is an attitude of the entire area being his even though it is all federal,state or Potlatch land for the most part.We will not purposely go in to area's that he is running hunters in.He runs guys around on four wheelers and set's them in tree stands.We all sneak and still hunt with the occaisional sits over funnels or abundant sign.We purposely go in to area's you can't get a four wheeler in to.We never have any problems with this outfitter,the locals hate the guy.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

Try looking at it from a differnt profession.

If a mechanic showed me how to fix my car and the next time I fixed it on my own would that be wrong?

If a travel agent showed me a good place to vacation and I told my buddy to take the same trip on his own would it be wrong?

Its the way we live. We learn from others actions. My first argument would be why is the outfitter showing you hot spots on public land? If that's how he operates, then he has to know that the he is exposing his "trade secrets" to youand he can't protect them. If I did pay a outfitter for hunting knowledge on public land, it would be very minimal.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

Thanks for the input everyone. Not sure if it changed my thoughts much but it was good to seehow some others feel on the subject.

A few of the outfitters that I looked at in New Mexico offer drop camps and scouting services. If I paid for a scouting service one year, I probably wouldn't feel like that was sacred information and wouldn't feel bad about hunting that area over again in future years without paying for updated information.

I still wouldn't feel right paying for a full guided hunt with an outfitter one year and then turning around and doing a DIY hunt in the same location andhunting the same spotsthe next year. I realize it is public land, and that doesn't give them exclusive rights to it, but something seems wrong about it to me.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

Well if your not a Wyoming resident and your hunting public land, im pretty sure your required to use an outfitter, dont qoute me on it, but im pretty sure its some sort of law.

Also, the forest land in western states is huge, and depends on what your hunting. for instance if your hunting deer in the mountains, you can hunt the same migatory routes as outfitters and never see the outfitters due to the make up of the mountains and the sure size.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

I'll quote you on it! :D

The Wyoming regulations requiring a guide are specific to designated wilderness areas, not public land in general, and you can use a "resident guide". Each Wyoming resident can guide up to two people each year but they have to get a resident guide license that is free of charge. They have to sign an affidavit saying that they aren't receiving any compensation for it.

They say it is for the safety of the non-residents out in the big bad wilderness, but if you are just camping out in the wilderness areas, youaren't required to havea guide.

One little trick that they use to lock you down is giving you a "free" fishing license when you get your non-resident big game tag. Even if you fill your big game tag (I shot my Elk on the first day) you legally have to stay with your guide the rest of the time because you have the fishing license. It really put a crimp on things a few times when we hiked in several miles on one trailhead and my friend and his son wanted to bushwack across and come out another trailhead. I volunteered to go back to the truck and drive it over to the other trailhead but I couldn't because technically my friend was my guide and had to be with me. Kind of a pain but rules are rules.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

see i knew there was some kind of catch in wyoming. thanks for clearing that up for me.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

tsoc, I meant no offense my friend.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

Why would you pay someone for that service on public land. Do your homework, get an idea for where you want to hunt and give the wco for that area a call. May take a little time for him to get back to you but it's free and unbiased. He would give you better options and may even suggest better areas that would improve your odds of filling your tags.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

I've used guides before when I don't know the country. Twice now it's been on public land in states I don't live in. I was up front about the public land thing with both the guides. They had no problem with it as long as I respected them and their clients when hunting, as I would any other hunter. To me the question is not ethical, it's comes down to a question of paid hunting. Here in Washington it is a big problem. Many people buy land and charge a lot of money to hunt on it.Free access on private land is dwindling so access to public land is essential. Due to this pressure I have no problem in utilizing any public land. Hunting cannot become a domain for the rich as it is in Europe.I think we as hunters need to make sure that doesn't happen. Ibelieve good guides will always find land that is productive. Often in hard to reach places or on private land not open to the public. That is the way it's always been as far as I know.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

MTMountainMan,thank you.I did not take offense to any thing you have said.I just wanted you to be clear that my comments were not directed at you specifically.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

You won't hunt your friend's honey hole on public land without your friend there or his permission? He shouldn't show you his honey holes ever then, unless you're both actively hunting together with each other...

As to a guide/outfitter, my thoughts are more of you hire a guide/outfitter, for that, outfitting more than anything, getting you deep into the wilderness, and providing you food/lodging....the hunting/guiding he's there to help/call, but you could just do that with a buddy, but not having horses, what's a guy to do?

Personally I'd rather hire a outfitter than rent horses etc....I'd be coming back with dead horses, lol, or without em completely, ha. And that leads to another point, you go out hunting all day are tired, you're paying for a service, horse wrangler can service the hrses etc....to do everything by yourself, means you can't do anything great....just like in business etc...., sure you may be able to do it all well, but to do it all by yourself.....is not practical at all. I wonder all these hunters who have a ethical dilemna hiring a guide/outfitter, if they have an ethical dilemna, hiring a lawn service, or plumber, or whoever to do whatever around their house etc....? I mean if you can do it yourself, why hire someone? That's their choice though. But if spending a little bit of cash means having an enjoyable experience vs. not having an enjoyable experience, well then I know what my choice would be.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

Personally I wouldn't want to hunt with horses I've rented.I've heard too many stories of them getting flipped over and wedged upside down with their legs flailing above them, requiring you to try to correct the animal without getting kicked. Packing horses in the mountains is tough. You get thrown or your foot gets stepped on or whatever. I think if you need horses an outfitter is by far the way to go. I think if you have the luxury of a 2-3 week trip you can do it on your own, on foot.However, 2-3 weeks is what you will want tohave a really good shot atfilling your tag. If you can afford the time off I would recommend it. I'm trying to take off our 5 week rifle season, but wouldn't you know it my wife just had an emergency surgery scheduled for 5 days after the opener! Hope I tag out the first day!

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

A lot of guys new to an area will use and outfitter the first year then go DIY in all succeeding years. Its ONE way of doing it if you have the ca$h. Good luck.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

Public land is public land and should not be contrived as some ones personal spot regardless of whether a guide or DIY is hunting it.Of course if someone is already there you move on, otherwise first come gets the location.

What is stopping someone from getting to the honey hole before your guided tour gets there? It is hard for me to believe a guide is going to take you somewhere that is easy to get to.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

I used outfitter in Colorado to get me on Mule Deer on Public Land / BLM.Ibought a landowner tag from him, he gave me maps, and showed me a couple good spots. I plan to goto the same location to hunt ELK with an OTC tag. I see nothing wrong with it. I paid good $ for the info!

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

First - I won'tendure any sympathyfor the guy who's out making money from other guys on public land(whether it's to feed his family or make the payments on his wife's Escalade). What's to say the spot he's taking you isn't the same one I've hunted since before your "guide" was born? Maybe it's MY spot? Those deer feedMY family. Maybe instead of thinking about the "poor guide" you should think about the poor guy like yourself who has a job during the week and only gets out on weekends, slogs into this little area, in hopes of bringing venison back to his family every year?

Though I don't own pack animals, I do know people who do. And they hunt elk inthe wilderness areas right there with the outfitters. Are we saying that because a commercial enterprise makes money from this endeavor that you - as a private citizen - have no right to hunt there yourself?

On the flip side though, I don't know many folks personallywho'll PAY a guide to hunt in the first place. We've plenty of public land out west, and generally plenty of friends who'll bend over backwards helping someone get started hunting. If we run into a guide, it's pure accident - if we know him, it's from seeing him at the gas station. We've never paid him for game information, never will, and he'll never "guilt" us into giving up our access so that he can turn some coin.So, in that regard, I would say that we completely agree.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

x2

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

I am in agreement with most here.The only thing that I don't agree with is to go back in to a spot a guide has taken you.You hunt with a guide,you have a good experience where the guide bust's his a-- to put you on game and the next year you go back to the same area that you punched in on your GPS the prior year with the hard working guide?
I couldn't do that,even though I understand that it is public land.I am not a big fan of guides,I am two for two with bad experiences with them many years ago,but I don't believe one year of paying a guide entitles someone to hunt or claim a location.
If it is an area that I had a history with or an area that I chose to hunt with no prior knowledge of a guide bringing me in to it than I say have at it.

RE: Ethical Question on Using an Outfitter
 

It's not 100% but most of the folks saying that it is okay to go back into an area on public land where a guide took you the year before aren't from the West. Some of these same folks are saying things like why would a guide take you to a great spot on public land in the first place. Some of the BEST hunting spots in the west are on public land. The key is knowing these areas. Some of these areas are not great distances from the nearest trail. The place where I took my elk this year in Wyoming was less than 2 miles from the nearest improved gravel road which doesn't seem very far to me. There were 2 different outfitters hunting that same area and both of them took elk out of there and one was pushing 360". In the first week of rifle season 5 bulls were taken that we knew off in an area about 3 miles long by 1.5 miles wide. That's a honey hole IMO. One thing that is helping that area stay a honey hole is the wilderness guide rules in Wyoming. You can't go back there without a guide by law, but otherwise it would be pretty easy. I know know where the wallows are, where the best trails are, etc.

That's what got me thinking about this issue. Even if there wasn't a guide requirement I don't think I would go back there without my friend or without his permission. It is an area he spent about 20 years figuring out exactly where all the wallows are and where the best trails are and he showed them to me in 1 week. If I had paid an outfitter I think I would feel the same way.

Oh well, I was just curious how others felt and it looks like we have a pretty wide range of opinions on the subject.

Thanks for the input.

Nathan